Phillipine Constabulary Garrison Belt

[cwnorma]

All,

 

Recently acuqired this Phillipine Constabulary Garrison Belt and it has piqued my interest in the P.C.

 

After getting the belt, I began to research the P.C. and have found suprisingly little written on them. So I was wondering if any one here has seen any others of this belt (or the Mills-made 1910 version), has any P.C. uniform items, insignia, or any period photographs of them in use.

 

 

I would also be interested in speculations as to its value.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Chris

[Charlie Flick]

Hi Chris:

 

Very nice belt. Is it unmarked? I suspect that it might have been made at the Maestranza de Manila (Manila Ordnance Depot). The buckle is, of course, of the same type as that seen on the Model of 1910 enlisted garrison belt. I am not at home right now but you may want to check out Steve Dorsey's belt books to see if he has any more info on the PC equipment.

 

I do have handy this pic (source not recalled nor recorded) of a couple of members of the PC. Note the nice bolo bayonet on the Springfield. These guys appear to be wearing the Mills type of Model of 1910 enlisted garrison belt.

 

I may have some other info or pics and will post again if I can remember to look for them later on.

 

Hope this helps you.

 

Regards,

Charlie Flick

 

 

[SARGE]

Charlie,

 

That is a great photo of Constabulary troopers. What the heck is the bayonet that the fellow on the right has attached to his carbine? I want to hear that story.

 

Chris,

 

I have seen these before. I agree with Charlie that it is a locally made leather cartridge belt. Can you tell if the buckle is a local casting or US made? I like PC stuff but I rarely find it.

 

Here is an interesting PC belt that I got from the WWII vet who personally brought it back. It is a Philippine Constabulary belt worn during the Japanese occupation. The flyer who brought it back got it when he was shot down and picked up by Filipino guerillas. By the time he got back to US control he had traded his belt for this one and wore it out of the jungle. The web belt is very Japanese looking while the belt plate is a very US style of rectangular plate. This is a local casting.

 

[atb]

Hi Chris:

 

Very nice belt. Is it unmarked? I suspect that it might have been made at the Maestranza de Manila (Manila Ordnance Depot). The buckle is, of course, of the same type as that seen on the Model of 1910 enlisted garrison belt. I am not at home right now but you may want to check out Steve Dorsey's belt books to see if he has any more info on the PC equipment.

 

I do have handy this pic (source not recalled nor recorded) of a couple of members of the PC. Note the nice bolo bayonet on the Springfield. These guys appear to be wearing the Mills type of Model of 1910 enlisted garrison belt.

 

I may have some other info or pics and will post again if I can remember to look for them later on.

 

Hope this helps you.

 

Regards,

Charlie Flick

I think these troops are Philippine Scouts, not Philippine Constabulary. These are two different organizations. I believe that the unusual headgear was especially designed for Moslem Philippine Scout soldiers of the 45th Infantry (PS) and 57th Infantry (PS) so their foreheads would touch the ground as required during daily prayers. The ASMIC Trading Post has had some images of that headgear being worn with DUIs for those two regiments of the Philippine Scouts.

[cbuehler]

Aha! Now you are getting into my territory here! This PC (Philippine Constabulary) buckle was used by officers with a variety of belts, including the issue sword belt. In other words, this is a custom belt with shotgun and revolver ammo loops that a standard PC buckle was utililzed with. In the early 1920's the uniforms and insignia of the PC changed and this buckle dates from before that time, most likely the teens.

You can get the history of the PC on the web, but with regard to the second belt and buckle shown, during the Japanese occupation the PC was a Japanese law enforcement organ and the insignia briefly changed.

Both of the belts shown on this thread are rare, especially the second one from the Japanese period.

Actually, the earlier PC buckle shown is one of the more commonly encountered items from the Philippine Constabulary! All PC material is rare. They are not related to the Philippine scouts which were regular US Army. The PC had both Filipino and American officers while all enlisted were Filipinos only, whereas the PS officers were almost exclusively Americans and the enlisted men Filipinos of course.

 

The picture of the Moro company of the Philippine Scouts, of the regular US Army. The period of the photo is circa ww1 when the PS were organized as companies. In 1922, The PS were reorganized into the regular Army regimental and division organization. The Moros became a company of (I think "D", but I cant recall) of the famous 45th Infantry (PS) of the 12th Philippine division and were based at Petit barracks Zamboanga. The other regular Scout infantry regiment, the 57th, did not have a Moro company.

At the beginning of ww2, the PC were federalized into fighting divisions along with the Philippine Army and fought alongside the Scouts of the Philippine Division, surrendering on Bataan in 1942.

 

CB

[cbuehler]

Aha! Now you are getting into my territory here! This PC (Philippine Constabulary) buckle was used by officers with a variety of belts, including the issue sword belt. In other words, this is a custom belt with shotgun and revolver ammo loops that a standard PC buckle was utililzed with. In the early 1920's the uniforms and insignia of the PC changed and this buckle dates from before that time, most likely the teens.

You can get the history of the PC on the web, but with regard to the second belt and buckle shown, during the Japanese occupation the PC was a Japanese law enforcement organ and the insignia briefly changed.

Both of the belts shown on this thread are rare, especially the second one from the Japanese period.

Actually, the earlier PC buckle shown is one of the more commonly encountered items from the Philippine Constabulary! All PC material is rare. They are not related to the Philippine scouts which were regular US Army. The PC had both Filipino and American officers while all enlisted were Filipinos only, whereas the PS officers were almost exclusively Americans and the enlisted men Filipinos of course.

 

The picture of the Moro company of the Philippine Scouts, of the regular US Army. The period of the photo is circa ww1 when the PS were organized as companies. In 1922, The PS were reorganized into the regular Army regimental and division organization. The Moros became a company of (I think "D", but I cant recall) of the famous 45th Infantry (PS) of the 12th Philippine division and were based at Petit barracks Zamboanga. The other regular Scout infantry regiment, the 57th, did not have a Moro company.

At the beginning of ww2, the PC were federalized into fighting divisions along with the Philippine Army and fought alongside the Scouts of the Philippine Division, surrendering on Bataan in 1942.

 

CB

One more thing to add. There were a number of big well known military outfitters in Manila where officers purchased their kit, several of which existed since Spanish times. Adolfo Roensch, Brixas Roxas, Heacocks, and at least 3 others that escape my memory at the moment. Additionally, there was the post tailor of Fort Wm. McKinley. There was a lot of military kit produced in Manila!

 

CB

[SARGE]

Thanks for the follow-up information CB. I like PC stuff too and I was happy to find this Japanese occupation period Constabulary belt.

[ADMIN]

Very fascinating thread. I would be interested in learning more about them, as I unfortunately haven't seen much of anything either - however it has always interested me.

[cwnorma]

Charlie,

 

Sorry, this thread got away from me for a while. The leather part of the belt appears to be unmarked, but it is identical in thickness and width to a Rock Island Arsenal Garrison Belt. It appears as though it started life as a garrison belt, and was modified later--possibly at Maestranza de Manila. It is configured for 38 revolver rounds on the right side, and .30 Krag on the other. If you look you can see that at one time all the loops were for the Krag rounds, but at some point in the life of the belt, it was modified for the revolver.

 

Dorsey's books do list this belt, along with the rest of the M1910 Garrison Belt series, but he wasn't able to shed much more light on this variant's use.

 

Chris

 

Hi Chris:

 

Very nice belt. Is it unmarked? I suspect that it might have been made at the Maestranza de Manila (Manila Ordnance Depot). The buckle is, of course, of the same type as that seen on the Model of 1910 enlisted garrison belt. I am not at home right now but you may want to check out Steve Dorsey's belt books to see if he has any more info on the PC equipment.

 

I do have handy this pic (source not recalled nor recorded) of a couple of members of the PC. Note the nice bolo bayonet on the Springfield. These guys appear to be wearing the Mills type of Model of 1910 enlisted garrison belt.

 

I may have some other info or pics and will post again if I can remember to look for them later on.

 

Hope this helps you.

 

Regards,

Charlie Flick

[SARGE]

Chris,

 

Thanks for reviving this thread as it got away from me too.

 

Oddly enough, I opened my new copy of "The Journal of the Society of American Bayonet Collectors" and found this same photo. It is a lead off for an article entitled, "The United States Bolo Bayonets in the Philippines" by Frank Trzaska. The two-part article identifies this photo as, "Two Moro Philippine Scouts armed with the Model of 1915 bayonet." So, it seems that he believes the photo is of the Philippine Scouts as well. I can hardly wait for the second part of the article next quarter.

 

I don't know quite what to do next since this is your thread and it is really about belts in this section. I have another PC officer's belt, with the officer belt plate and no loops, but I need to get some photos and SOS comes up this weekend. Life interferes it seems.

 

Perhaps next week I can take some photos and post them.

 

I also have some other PC uniform items, etc. that would probably interest you and others who have responded to this thread. I suppose we could start a new topic under uniforms or someplace else. How do you, and others who are interested, think we should proceed with PC items that are not related to belts?

 

What would be interesting is to determine what belt plate these Philippine Scouts are wearing in the photo. I presume it is the interlocking round "US" buckle worn on the Model 1910 belt? Or, is this buckle something locally made and different? Anyone with an example of this particular Army belt shown in the photograph?

[cwnorma]

SARGE,

 

Thanks that would be great! I look forward to seeing your officer's belt and agree, the best place for the uniform items would be in the uniforms thread. When you get back from the SOS, please consider starting a thread there.

 

Things like the PC, and Guard du Haiti are little known (to many people) chapters of US militaria, and I believe deserve a place here on the board.

 

Chris

 

 

Chris,

 

Thanks for reviving this thread as it got away from me too.

 

Oddly enough, I opened my new copy of "The Journal of the Society of American Bayonet Collectors" and found this same photo. It is a lead off for an article entitled, "The United States Bolo Bayonets in the Philippines" by Frank Trzaska. The two-part article identifies this photo as, "Two Moro Philippine Scouts armed with the Model of 1915 bayonet." So, it seems that he believes the photo is of the Philippine Scouts as well. I can hardly wait for the second part of the article next quarter.

 

I don't know quite what to do next since this is your thread and it is really about belts in this section. I have another PC officer's belt, with the officer belt plate and no loops, but I need to get some photos and SOS comes up this weekend. Life interferes it seems.

 

Perhaps next week I can take some photos and post them.

 

I also have some other PC uniform items, etc. that would probably interest you and others who have responded to this thread. I suppose we could start a new topic under uniforms or someplace else. How do you, and others who are interested, think we should proceed with PC items that are not related to belts?

 

What would be interesting is to determine what belt plate these Philippine Scouts are wearing in the photo. I presume it is the interlocking round "US" buckle worn on the Model 1910 belt? Or, is this buckle something locally made and different? Anyone with an example of this particular Army belt shown in the photograph?

[SARGE]

SARGE,

 

Thanks that would be great! I look forward to seeing your officer's belt and agree, the best place for the uniform items would be in the uniforms thread. When you get back from the SOS, please consider starting a thread there.

 

Things like the PC, and Guard du Haiti are little known (to many people) chapters of US militaria, and I believe deserve a place here on the board.

 

Chris

 

OK, I am back from SOS and I had a few minutes today to get a picture of my Philippine Constabulary sword belt. This belt buckle has the same Constabulary insignia that is on the PC sword. The belt has no markings and it is very well made.

 

 

This is obviously an officer's sword belt but I do not have a definitive date on when it was worn. The sword slings are integral to the belt and one strap is broken. The regain hook is set into the leather and the slings are suspended from a leather loop that is captured within a leather half moon that protects the uniform from wear. Later PC officers wore the Sam Browne belt with the standard open claw buckle but I don't know when this sword belt was replaced.

[SARGE]

Here is a closeup view of the PC belt buckle. The interlocking buckle is very nicely die stamped (not cast) and all fittings are what appear to be white brass or tombak and not yellow brass like the enlisted PC buckles.

 

 

I do not know if this belt was US made but it does not give the appearance of the normally seen local castings. It is also possible that the belts and/or buckles were imported from Europe along with the PC officer swords.

[cwnorma]

Sarge,

 

Beautiful!

 

I have never seen another, and truly appreciate the chance to learn about this belt.

 

Even Dorsey did not illustrate this belt.

 

I would estimate that based on your belt, and the one at the top of the thread pre-date the 1910 Garrison Belt series, and possibly were the inspiration for that series of belts.

 

Chris

[SARGE]

Sarge,

 

Beautiful!

 

I have never seen another, and truly appreciate the chance to learn about this belt.

 

Even Dorsey did not illustrate this belt.

 

I would estimate that based on your belt, and the one at the top of the thread pre-date the 1910 Garrison Belt series, and possibly were the inspiration for that series of belts.

 

Chris

 

Chris,

 

Thanks for the kudos on the sword belt. Here is the Philippine Constabulary sword that goes with this belt.

 

 

This sword is basically the Model 1902 US Army Officer's Sabre that was made for the PC with very specific variations from the normal sword. Here is a closeup of the PC badge that is affixed to the scabbard throat. This same insignia is also etched into the blade.

 

 

The sword itself is also impossibly difficult to find.

[robinb]

Here's the M1915 bayonet example from my collection.

[robinb]

Not a great example, I'll admit, but the only one that I've ever seen in person.

[SARGE]

robinb,

 

Thanks for the photo of the bolo bayonet. I think this is actually one of the test bayonets for the 1911 tests or one of the 51 (#40 according to the blade marking) Model 1912 bolo bayonets that were sent to Manila Ordnance Depot. At any rate, it is a rare puppy despite the condition.

[cwnorma]

Sarge and robinb,

 

Thanks to both for posting your P.C. Items! This is stuff you just don't get to see very often.

 

Sarge,

 

I know where another sword is, but unfortunately it is not available for sale.

 

robinb,

 

Thanks for showing the bayonet. No need to apologize about the condition on that one! As Mr. Flayderman used to tell prospective buyers when they would complain about condition of a really rare item: "Find another one."

 

Chris

[Keith]

Sarge and robinb,

 

Thanks to both for posting your P.C. Items! This is stuff you just don't get to see very often.

 

Sarge,

 

I know where another sword is, but unfortunately it is not available for sale.

 

robinb,

 

Thanks for showing the bayonet. No need to apologize about the condition on that one! As Mr. Flayderman used to tell prospective buyers when they would complain about condition of a really rare item: "Find another one."

 

Chris

I stumbled upon this thread by accident and found it several months old. Maybe I will revive it. I have owned two of the PC belts. They were originally a waist belt and then were modified with cartridge loops. The first belt had real good leather but the loops had been removed restoring it to a waist belt but left the hole pattern. I had an opportunity to acquire the 2nd belt complete with the added loops so bought it and sold the first belt. I am proud to say that the 2nd belt is pictured in Don Wilkerson's book on 1878 Colt DA's in the chapter he devotes to the 1902 Philippine model. Following first is a picture of the PC belt and then there are 3 other photos of maestranza de manila marked items I have. Thanks for looking. PS: PC belt value, not a great amount as you would expect; probably $750 +/- $100.

[Argonauts2]

All,

 

Recently acuqired this Phillipine Constabulary Garrison Belt and it has piqued my interest in the P.C.

 

After getting the belt, I began to research the P.C. and have found suprisingly little written on them. So I was wondering if any one here has seen any others of this belt (or the Mills-made 1910 version), has any P.C. uniform items, insignia, or any period photographs of them in use.

 

 

I would also be interested in speculations as to its value.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Chris

 

 

Chris

 

Thanks for posting your photo of the Constabulary belt and buckle. This is an interesting variant. I have three of these belts in my collection. Two without loops, one with loops for a Krag. One two of the buckles, there appear to be flecks of red paint in the background behind the PC, but long worn away. I have never seen a version where the paint remained and if their was the "issue" style, or something done by the Constabulary. Regardless, all three of mine are unmarked with regard to makers. One is part of a larger grouping I have that belonged to a constabulary officer by the name of Lt. Raymond Gramm who served on Ilocos from 1909 to 1911. My grouping includes his commissions, swagger stick, photo album, pith helmet, some insignia, belt and sword. I have attached a few photos of the PC belts and a photo of a constabulary officer from the period wearing the belt and sword. Hope this helps. All the best. Joe

[Argonauts2]

Chris

 

Here is the second belt. Joe

[cwnorma]

Joe,

 

Thanks for bringing this thread back to the top.

 

Since finding this belt, I have come across a second belt with loops, and the 1910 version.

 

Chris

[Argonauts2]

Joe,

 

Thanks for bringing this thread back to the top.

 

Since finding this belt, I have come across a second belt with loops, and the 1910 version.

 

Chris

 

 

Thanks Chris

 

The second belt I posted is the belt that belonged to Lt. Gramm. The third belt with loops and krag rounds, I have had problems posting because of file size. I also tried to post a PC buckle with a wreath, but the same issue. I will try photographing them again this weekend and will try posting them again.

 

Early Philippine Constabulary is my area of interest, primarily from 1900 to 1935 at the latest, but mostly from 1900 to 1920.

 

What I like about your belt with loops is the blend between pistol and shotgun shell loops. The earliest constabulary troops were issued only shotguns with black powder shells -- the question at the time was trust of the native soldiers and shotguns had limited range and black powder shells would easily disclose location compared to the new smokeless rounds used in the krag. This changed fairly quickly and they were eventually issues older springfield, and Remington rifles and finally krags along with with new Winchester repeating (pump) shotgun. Many Constabulary officers preferred as a long arm the Winchester pump shotgun with buck shot along with a pistol. Capt. Cary Crockett, a Philippine Medal of Valor preferred a Winchester shotgun and pistol as most of his engagements were up close and personal.

 

I have been collecting in this area for 30 years and have an extensive reference library if I can be of help. All the best and Happy New Year! Joe

[Argonauts2]

Chris

 

Thanks for posting your photo of the Constabulary belt and buckle. This is an interesting variant. I have three of these belts in my collection. Two without loops, one with loops for a Krag. One two of the buckles, there appear to be flecks of red paint in the background behind the PC, but long worn away. I have never seen a version where the paint remained and if their was the "issue" style, or something done by the Constabulary. Regardless, all three of mine are unmarked with regard to makers. One is part of a larger grouping I have that belonged to a constabulary officer by the name of Lt. Raymond Gramm who served on Ilocos from 1909 to 1911. My grouping includes his commissions, swagger stick, photo album, pith helmet, some insignia, belt and sword. I have attached a few photos of the PC belts and a photo of a constabulary officer from the period wearing the belt and sword. Hope this helps. All the best. Joe

 

 

Here is a close-up image of the buckle and what appears to be the remains of a one-time red enamel paint.