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50th Anniversary Reunion - Battle of Gettysburg


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SCF-Collector

This looks to me like it would be the official Illinois state badge with the company and regiment just written on the top (Lt. Marcellus Jones who took the first shot at GB was in Company E) whereas yours is specific to the 8th Illinois Cav.

 

 

I believe this is indeed the official Illinois State Badge for 1913 Bob. I have seen one other like it, which is as you might have guessed, is in my collection. The Veteran was from I believe the 39th Illinois (and I have his ladder badge as well). I also recently acquired an amazing photograph (in terms of picture clarity/detail) of a group of Veterans from Joliet, Illinois (it is labeled as such) - and in it 2-3 of the Veterans are clearly wearing this ribbon/badge! To me having a picture of a Veteran wearing the particular piece is proof of its existence and use!

 

The only confusion (mystery?) regarding Illinois/1913 badges is that I own several examples of a pin-back for Illinois/1913 that appears with just a small American flag ribbon but also on multiple regimental Illinois pieces for 1913. My guess is that it's a "standard" State piece that was produced by perhaps one manufacturer who sold badges to multiple regiments. The example with the flag ribbon came with the ribbon and ladder badge I mentioned above, which makes me wonder what status it had.

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SCF-Collector

Imagine my surprise when I found that the GNMP Library file had a photo of my g-g-grandfather's brother, William Thomas Baldwin of the 4th VA Inf. and his first cousin (my 1C4R) , Albert Haller Gibboney of the 22nd VA Inf. standing at the High Water Mark monument during the 1913 reunion:

 

Oh wow, a picture of an ancestor at the reunion! That's fantastic! I'm jealous!

 

That image looks familiar to me. Do you know if it's been published anywhere? I can't recall where I might have seen it - but it sure does look familiar to me!

 

It would be wonderful if you could find those badges. I can't identify the other ones - not without a loop and the original in my hand. Then I might be able to venture a guess. If you can't find them you've just got to acquire one of the Virginia Infantry badges to display with that original photo! Unfortunately, that's one of the harder of the three Virginia badges to find these days - but they are out there!

 

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SCF-Collector

The GNMP Museum also has this 1913 one from the Army and Navy Medal of Honor Legion:

 

<Jaw-Hitting-Table>.

 

That's only the second one of those I've EVER seen. And no, I don't own one - not yet anyway. However I do have one coming along in the coming months. It's part of a collection I've been acquiring.

 

Okay, quiz time. Do you know why there's that large blank space at the top of the ribbon? Here's a hint, the one I'm about to acquire has, in that blank space, a re-enforced black cardboard-like piece sewn onto the ribbon. Care to venture a guess?

 

FYI, the answer is MY speculation as to its purpose. I haven't found a photo yet to prove my theory.

 

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Oh wow, a picture of an ancestor at the reunion! That's fantastic! I'm jealous!

 

Well, technically they are the brother of an ancestor and the son of an ancestor :rolleyes: but that's close enough for me!

 

 

That image looks familiar to me. Do you know if it's been published anywhere?

 

 

 

Not that I know of but that's one of the most common places on the battlefield where veterans had their photo taken.

 

 

It would be wonderful if you could find those badges.

 

 

 

Oh, I suspect that I know where they are...

 

post-152774-0-60730900-1406257399.jpg

 

…but I won't give up hope that I'll find them elsewhere some day!

 

-Bob

 

(Notice that Baldwin died about a month and a half after that photo. Gibboney lasted another four years).

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Okay, quiz time. Do you know why there's that large blank space at the top of the ribbon? Here's a hint, the one I'm about to acquire has, in that blank space, a re-enforced black cardboard-like piece sewn onto the ribbon. Care to venture a guess?

 

I'm guessing a place to mount a tag with the veteran's name and specific unit. Or maybe an image of the MOH itself (Army vs Navy).

 

-Bob

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My guess is this badge originally had something else hanging from the suspension bar in front of the blue ribbon. I have seen cases where these composite ribbons get separated due to fraying, mistreatment, or improper storage over time. I would love to see what this piece looked like originally!

 

Kevin

 

 

attachicon.gif moh.jpg

Courtesy of the GNMP Museum

 

-Bob

 

 

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Having made two guesses, I now have two more:

 

- The "Army Bow Knot" or the "Navy Rosette" pin, one or the other of which were worn by members of the Legion in lieu of the medal, especially when in civilian clothes.

 

- A badge, graphic, or label distinguishing the wearer's class of membership in the Legion (First or Second Class or Companion).

 

OK, I think I'm done guessing. Now we need to find an intact one!

 

-Bob

 

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OK, one more guess :rolleyes: ...

 

James Madison Drake, Historian of the Medal of Honor Legion in 1913 said:

 

"Simple as the medal of honor is, it is never worn except at military functions, and the heroes who performed exalted deeds on the fields of battle are distinguished in everyday life only by a simple button -- blue button with thirteen white stars -- worn unostentatiously in the lapel of the coat."

-Cherry Creek NY News, 1912-1913 (www.fultonhistory.com)

 

That description doesn't match the Army Bow Knot or the Navy Rosette which are specified in the Legion's constitution and bylaws … but I bet the cardboard served as a mounting place for one of those three pins.

 

-Bob

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If you can't find them you've just got to acquire one of the Virginia Infantry badges to display with that original photo! Unfortunately, that's one of the harder of the three Virginia badges to find these days - but they are out there!

 

I've never seen a breakdown of infantry vs cavalry vs artillery but with 3278 attendees, Virginia was the third-most-represented state in 1913 -- and infantry had to be the largest group of the three. Why would they be so rare??

 

I've never seen a 1913 Virginia medal of any type for less than ~$750. Heck, I bought a North Dakota (165 attendees) for less than that!

 

-Bob

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Given that there were only 165 attendees from North Dakota, what do you make of the "213" on your ND badge? Mine is "103".

 

Were they mailed in advance and many just didn't make the trip? I wonder if the ND archives has a list of who was invited (and their numbers!).

 

-Bob

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  • 2 weeks later...
SCF-Collector

Given that there were only 165 attendees from North Dakota, what do you make of the "213" on your ND badge? Mine is "103".

 

Were they mailed in advance and many just didn't make the trip? I wonder if the ND archives has a list of who was invited (and their numbers!).

 

-Bob

 

No way to know for sure Bob. My initial theory was that this was a perhaps a GAR Post number. It just didn't make sense to me that they'd print one-off numbered celluloid badges. My thinking was that there was at least there a chance of more than one individual from a Post or Camp. I've seen a few of these - and never two with the same number. But that theory doesn't hold-up when you look at the listed Posts for ND (as your research showed Bob). Your theory probably more likely - badges sequentially numbered and given to those that intended to attend - and not all of them did. That is at least plausible. Perhaps the manufacturing process by 1913 made the sequential numbering of the badges easier.

 

FYI, the only other 1913 badge I've seen that's numbered is the Illinois ribbon. Mine has a number stamped on the ribbon - which to me is very likely the number assigned to each registered attendee. I've never tried to track down any records that might exist for this. Something for when I have more time for research I suppose <g>.

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SCF-Collector

 

I've never seen a breakdown of infantry vs cavalry vs artillery but with 3278 attendees, Virginia was the third-most-represented state in 1913 -- and infantry had to be the largest group of the three. Why would they be so rare??

 

I've never seen a 1913 Virginia medal of any type for less than ~$750. Heck, I bought a North Dakota (165 attendees) for less than that!

 

-Bob

 

I think the most likely explanation for the rarity (and cost) of the Virginia badges is the simple fact that they are very fragile. The ribbons are very thin and prone to splitting/tears, and the ribbon is connected to the drop via a crimping right onto the edge of the thing (easily torn off). Walking all the shows over the years I can't tell you how many "Virginia" top bars I've seen, and drops - that I know started life as part of a 1913 Virginia badge.

 

It also doesn't help (price-wise) that the Virginia badges are also some of the most attractive and desirable of the 1913 badges. Let's face it, unless you're a collector of pieces from the 1913 reunion, are you going to plop down your money to buy a ND badge - or a Virginia (can you say Confederate) badge?

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SCF-Collector

Army and Navy Medal of Honor Legion

 

Sorry for the delay in responding to all the great guesses on this one. I posted my comments then promptly spent a good bit of the past weeks on-the-road for business.

 

I honestly don't think there is a missing piece to this ribbon. The example I am in the process of acquiring is in excellent condition, and I have examined it closely. There are no signs of any other piece (a ribbon/celluloid drop for example) ever being attached.

 

The re-enforced backing and the obvious blank space to me means that something was supposed to be attached there. It's a very unusual construction and I can only conclude that something was to be "pinned" there.

 

Could it have been a name tag w/unit as someone suggested - sure, why not. Perhaps this organization had name badges? I've never seen one - but who knows?

 

The other suggestions are just as possible - maybe it was used for various purposes. Like I said, I've yet to see a picture of someone wearing that ribbon. BTW, thanks for all those guesses. I hadn't done much research on the subject and those guesses are great possibilities!

 

My guess, for what it's worth - is that the MOH went there. Maybe they weren't supposed to be worn except at military functions as someone posted - but who's to say this didn't count as an appropriate event? All I can tell you is that I happened to acquire a reproduction MOH shortly after I saw this ribbon - and I sent it to the current owner of the ribbon. He said it looked like it belonged on the ribbon. I need to get him to send me a picture of it to post here so you can see it for yourselves.

 

This is just another example of why the Gettysburg reunions still fascinate me. There's always a missing piece of the puzzle to try to solve.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Mickey,

 

FYI, I now have a copy of the veteran roster that made up the delegation from North Dakota to the 1913 reunion. Now I'm researching each of the veterans for evidence of their GAR post, etc.

 

I also have a copy of the North Dakota joint resolution (S.B.N. 375, 1913) which allocated the $15,000 for veterans' expenses to attend the reunion. I hope to track this to find exactly how the money was spent and, in particular, any bids, invoice, or specifications about the state badges. Of course, they may have been funded by the GAR so I'm researching that route too. Follow the money!… :D

 

-Bob

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Mickey, do you (or anyone) have a photo of a veteran wearing a 1913 badge from Pennsylvania, New York, Maryland and/or Missouri (or North Dakota :rolleyes: )? I'd like examples to display with those badges in my display case.

 

You'd think that the first two in that list would be easy but I haven't found any where the badge was clearly distinguishable.

 

(I have photos of veterans wearing badges from ME, NH, MA, RI, and others)

Thanks.

 

-Bob

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SCF-Collector

Mickey, do you (or anyone) have a photo of a veteran wearing a 1913 badge from Pennsylvania, New York, Maryland and/or Missouri (or North Dakota :rolleyes: )? I'd like examples to display with those badges in my display case.

 

I have photos with Veterans wearing New York, Maryland, and Missouri (w/the red ribbon). Missouri and New York are actually in the same photograph. Sorry, no PA or ND. I've seen the PA badge in photos, but couldn't see the detail - just recognized the shape. I also have VA, MI, OH, IL, ME, and maybe 1-2 others (going from memory). My photograph with the Maryland badge is a group shot with 4-5 Veterans wearing it (clearly readable) - and the Veterans are ID'd on the photo.

 

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SCF-Collector

Mickey,

 

FYI, I now have a copy of the veteran roster that made up the delegation from North Dakota to the 1913 reunion. Now I'm researching each of the veterans for evidence of their GAR post, etc.

 

I also have a copy of the North Dakota joint resolution (S.B.N. 375, 1913) which allocated the $15,000 for veterans' expenses to attend the reunion. I hope to track this to find exactly how the money was spent and, in particular, any bids, invoice, or specifications about the state badges. Of course, they may have been funded by the GAR so I'm researching that route too. Follow the money!… :D

 

-Bob

 

Wow, that's great information Bob! Following the money makes total sense! It would be great if you could solve the mystery of the numbers that appear on their badges!I need to find the time one of these days to do the same sort of research on the Illinois badges to sort out a) what the numbers that are stamped on them might mean, and B) why the same "Illinois/1913" pin-back appears on multiple Post and Regimental badges.

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Well, I might be talking to myself here but I'm going to answer part of my own question. I found this photo of John William Towson/Towsen wearing a 1913 Missouri badge.

 

post-152774-0-52568200-1409454105.jpg

 

The photo is from a plate (before pg 17) in the PA Commission report. I find two interesting things about it. First, he's also wearing the Missouri ribbon which Mickey has in his collection but I don't :) . But he's also wearing a Virginia Cavalry badge. Towson fought for the 4th VA Cav. but was a resident of Missouri in 1913. So how did he get a Virginia badge?

 

There were Confederate units from Missouri, of course, but I've often wondered, for instance, how the 10 former Confederate soldiers who happened to live in New Hampshire in 1913 felt about wearing a New Hampshire badge among his southern buddies at the reunion. Although they were issued based on residence (not service), was it possible to BUY a State badge?

 

Or maybe his position on the UCV committee gave Towson special access? Has anyone seen another example of a veteran wearing two state badges?

 

-Bob

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I have photos with Veterans wearing New York, Maryland, and Missouri (w/the red ribbon). Missouri and New York are actually in the same photograph. Sorry, no PA or ND. I've seen the PA badge in photos, but couldn't see the detail - just recognized the shape. I also have VA, MI, OH, IL, ME, and maybe 1-2 others (going from memory). My photograph with the Maryland badge is a group shot with 4-5 Veterans wearing it (clearly readable) - and the Veterans are ID'd on the photo.

 

 

Are they standing around the monument at the high water mark? I think that I remember seeing such a photo with (at least) a MD badge being distinguishable - but I haven't yet found that photo again.

 

Is your photo with NY and MD in the public domain?

 

With nearly half of the veterans being from PA, there HAS to be a good picture of one wearing that badge! It boggles my mind why they aren't all over the place. Maybe there is some other factor at play - like they didn't receive them in time or had a reason not to wear them.

 

By the way, I found it interesting that even the photos of Sickles at the 1913 reunion don't show him wearing his State badge - but he is wearing the NY Dedication Day badge from twenty years earlier.

 

Thanks.

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I think that the PA Commission report shows photos of NY badges on the plates before pages 195, 198, and 225 and the one after page 228. But none of them are very clear. :(

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You know those 30 register books that the PA Commission report said were around the Great Camp for veterans to sign? Well, I think I found them today in the bowels of the PA State Archives. Unfortunately, there's only about 6100 names in them. Oh well, there's other sources (like records of travel expenditures) from which to construct a list of the veterans.

 

One of the scrapbooks in the archive also had this ribbon which I hadn't seen before:

 

post-152774-0-48993700-1409875360.jpg

 

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

In case anyone is interested, I had occasion to display my collection at a recent meeting of the Association of Licensed Battlefield Guides in Gettysburg:

 

post-152774-0-36818300-1411586730.jpg

 

This is the case containing the 1913/1938 reunion badges:

 

post-152774-0-38274700-1411586771.jpg

 

-Bob

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I've course we're interested Bob! Very Nice! I like the way you appear to have pictures of folks wearing the various badges.

 

Is that a Distinguished Guest medal for 1938 I see on the far right? If so, that's certainly a rare one - I think something like 91 of those issues (going from memory here after a long day <g>).

 

What's in those other cases - they look cool as well! Can you post pictures of those here or elsewhere?

 

I'm sure a most appreciative audience for this subject matter!

 

Thanks for posting the pics!

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I am with Mickey! Is there any way you could post close ups of those cases?

 

I should also add that your display is excellent. The presentation is very nice and organized. I wish I could put together something like that!

 

Kevin

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  • 3 weeks later...
SCF-Collector

I had these pictures handy so I thought I'd post them here to continue expanding this thread as a reference.

 

post-1293-0-52091500-1413505235.jpg post-1293-0-35926200-1413505255.jpg

Delaware

Total Attendees: 315

North 303, South 12

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