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US New England Westinghouse Mosin Nagant...


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#1 Len S

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 05:03 PM

I picked this up today at an antique show. It's a Mosin Nagant M1891 made by New England Westinghouse for the Imperial Russian Army during WWI. In 1917 the post Czarist Russian government defaulted on the balance of the contract (also on Remington's). To save both companies from the financial hit that the default would entail the US govt. purchased the remaining rifles. They were issued to state NG's , militias and to doughboys for training. The Ordnance Dept. marked the receivers with eagle acceptance stamps and the stocks with "US" and the flaming ordnance bomb. Here are some pics.

Len

NEW_1915r_US_Army_002.JPG


NEW_1915r_US_Army_013a.jpg


NEW_1915r_US_Army_008a.jpg

#2 Len S

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 03:43 AM

Here's a pic of US sailors from the USS Olympia armed with the American Mosins. They engaged Red Army forces as part of the Allied intervention force that occupied the area around Archangel.

Len

archangel1.jpg

Edited by Len S, 03 June 2012 - 03:47 AM.


#3 GWS

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 04:46 AM

Interesting and thanks for posting the pics. I have one of these rifles with a serial #861033 but without the US flaming bomb marks on the stock. It was returned to the US at some point as it has the very small "import" markings on the barrel near the muzzle. I can only assume it was shipped overseas and may have ended up in Archangel or Murmansk or even Britain and may have been used by one of the many forces in the conflict there. Oddly, on the left side of the reciever just in front of the hex there is a small boxed SA and a very small R in a circle on the front of the stock endcap. I'm guessing the R would stand for Remington as they also made these rifles but the boxed SA on the reciever has me puzzled(Springfield Armory??). If anyone has more details on these markings please post. I don't have any pics but will take some soon. Thanks again.

#4 US Victory Museum

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 06:51 AM

Dear GWS:

The box "[SA]" is a mark for "Suomi Armee" (Finnish Army) i.e. Finland.

Whether this is a captured weapon from the Winter War I cannot say definitively; however,
I don't believe the US sold any Negant rifles other than to the pre-Soviet Russians.

Msn

#5 Jack's Son

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 07:33 AM

Dear GWS:
The box "[SA]" is a mark for "Suomi Armee" (Finnish Army) i.e. Finland.

Please point out the "[SA]" marking you are referring to. I can't find it.
(As I write this, I am sure it will stand out plainly!!)?......I found the reference to it. :blush:

Edited by Jack's Son, 03 June 2012 - 07:35 AM.


#6 GWS

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 07:40 AM

DSCN9091.JPG DSCN9088_001.JPG [attachment=
29843:DSCN9090.JPG]

Here's the photo's I just took, apologize for the poor color.



US Victory Museum---Thanks for the info on Suomi Armee. I suspect this rifle went there sometime after the conflict in North Russia.

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#7 GWS

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 07:51 AM

I fear I'm hijacking Len S' post here, that is not my intent. I'd just like to learn more about these rifles and their role in North Russia. Obviously Len S' rifle never left the U.S. and was used for training by one of the groups he mentioned. My rifle went overseas at some point and much later made it's way back here, but I'll probably never know where and who it was used by.


Jack's Son-----What reference are you looking at?

Edited by GWS, 03 June 2012 - 07:54 AM.


#8 Jack's Son

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 07:58 AM

I fear I'm hijacking Len S' post here, that is not my intent.......
Jack's Son-----What reference are you looking at?

Thanks, I found the answer!.........NOW, back to Len!

#9 tthen

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 08:16 AM

Len,
Outstanding example. I have been looking for a Westinghouse or Remington without an import stamp for a long time.
If you don't mind saying, what did you have to pay?
Thanks for posting

#10 Charlie Flick

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 11:20 AM

Len:

A neat rifle and bit of US Ordnance history to boot. I like the photo, too. The sailor on the left in front looks like he is holding a grenade. A couple of the sailors' rifles have string/twine in use for slings. They must have been short on the slings.

Thanks for the post.

Regards,
Charlie

#11 Niner Alpha

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 04:19 PM

The original stocks that were exported should have the British Contract mark on the butt of the stock. A lot of the Finn Capture NEW Nagants ended up being restocked at some juncture before being imported by Century or one of the other major arms importers back to the US. Many of these US manufactured arms likely had a hard life, first the start of WWI and the revolution and then being captured from the Russians to arm the Finn's and maybe changing back again during the two Finn against Russian conflicts.

The reason for the British contract was that the Tsar used British agents to contract with New England Westinghouse and Remington to make M1891 rifles to arm the Russians at the start of WWI.

These rifles, once pretty cheap, are now prized by Curio and Relic collectors.

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#12 Niner Alpha

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 02:01 PM

One thing that needs to be kept in mind about these Nagants from NEW and Remington that never made it to Europe is that a lot of them ended up surplus in this country and were converted to 30.06 from the intended Russian 7.62x54r. Bannerman in New York offered them for $14 each in the rechambered configureation back in the 20's as one source. They were being sold as a poor man's hunting rifle.

The rechambered for 30.06 offers two problems... shooting the wrong ammo in the rifle on the one hand is dangerous. On the other hand the 30.06 was a jackleg production with a realitively high pressure round and they are considered potentially dangerous to shoot in the reconfigured form, even with the right ammo. Before you shoot one of these know what you have and what you are doing. Better safe than sorry.

Edited by Niner Alpha, 04 June 2012 - 02:06 PM.


#13 Sgt Saunders

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 12:00 PM

Nice Mosin! The Finns got another one! The "D" is a Finn proof that means it is safe to shoot with Russian ball ammo.
It's a Finnish capture or bought by the Finns after WWI.
For your reference:
http://7.62x54r.net/

Edited by Sgt Saunders, 10 June 2012 - 12:11 PM.


#14 Niner Alpha

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 07:24 AM

The one Len S posted in the original post isn't a D barrel and I don't see any S in a box Finn proof mark...although I do see the US property flaming bomb mark. A big question mark to me. But, granted, there are some Russian proof marks on the receiver. The only question is when was it proof marked? In the US at first making perhaps?

Any Nagant of US manufacture that doesn't have the import marks and stamped with the caliber on the barrel should be closely inspected before firing. And those that are noticed to be stamped and imported ought to be inspected by someone with some degree of experience and knowledge before firing.

#15 Sgt Saunders

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 07:30 AM

The one Len S posted in the original post isn't a D barrel and I don't see any S in a box Finn proof mark...although I do see the US property flaming bomb mark. A big question mark to me. But, granted, there are some Russian proof marks on the receiver. The only question is when was it proof marked? In the US at first making perhaps?

Any Nagant of US manufacture that doesn't have the import marks and stamped with the caliber on the barrel should be closely inspected before firing. And those that are noticed to be stamped and imported ought to be inspected by someone with some degree of experience and knowledge before firing.


Sorry,
I was referring GWS's post.
I will say that any Military or used firearm should
be inspected completely before shooting.

#16 Niner Alpha

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 03:33 PM

Statement about inspection cheerfully noted, Sgt.

As a "by the way", not all Finn marked NEW's were given D barrels. I have one that has a barrel that looks original. It is 7.62x54r I've fired it a number of times.

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#17 Sgt Saunders

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 02:20 AM

The "D" is actually a Finnish proof Mark that the rifle is safe to shoot with Russian ammo. The Finnish early made barrels
were a smaller bore by a .001 or so. So any Russian capture would have been OK to to shoot Russian ammo in.
The Finns did how ever mark them with a D anyway. Some never were marked. To me it seem the D mark
was a random thing. The Finns never made any receivers. They used capture receivers and bought supplys after WWI
that were war repredations. Didn't mean to hijack this post, only to add some info on Mosins. These guns have a long
history that is just astounding!

#18 Niner Alpha

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 05:52 AM

I like the subject too, Sgt. Saunders. My first C&R rifle was the SA New England Westinghouse...which began a rather long journey to date.

I believe...to add a slight bit of detail... the "D" stamp meant that the barrel had been made for , or reworked for, the Finn D166 cartridge that was made slightly different from the Russian one. I also..think... what it amounted to was taking the fractional distance off the end of the barrel where it screws into the receiver. As you say....001... or some fraction.

Sorry... I meant to edit the last post and add something, didn't mean to create another post.

Edited by Niner Alpha, 02 July 2012 - 05:55 AM.


#19 Niner Alpha

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 05:55 AM

I like the subject too, Sgt. Saunders. My first C&R rifle was the SA New England Westinghouse...which began a rather long journey to date.

I believe...to add a slight bit of detail... the "D" stamp meant that the barrel had been made for , or reworked for, the Finn D166 cartridge that was made slightly different from the Russian one. I also..think... what it amounted to was taking the fractional distance off the end of the barrel where it screws into the receiver. As you say....001... or some fraction.

Later tinkering with the Nagants produced rifles like the M39 that used the 1891 receiver but changed the barrels and shortened them, rebuilt stocks, adjusted trigger pull, changed sights...etc.


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