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FSSF Grouping (with Canadian jump wings) - real?


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#1 Tonomachi

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 06:44 PM

I saw this First Special Service Force grouping for sale today but couldn't afford the asking price. Does anyone know if the crossed arrows are authentic? The shoulder cord looks different than the ones I've seen before.

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  • FSSF_Grp4.JPG


#2 Tonomachi

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 06:47 PM

More Photos

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  • FSSF_Grp1.JPG
  • FSSF_Grp.JPG
  • FSSF_Grp2.JPG
  • FSSF_Grp3.JPG


#3 101combatvet

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 08:04 PM

From memory the crossed arrows look good. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif I'll have a look at mine and get back to you.

I saw this First Special Service Force grouping for sale today but couldn't afford the asking price. Does anyone know if the crossed arrows are authentic? The shoulder cord looks different than the ones I've seen before.



#4 Jim Baker

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 08:36 PM

Where is it being offered? Thanks.

#5 militariacollector

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 10:11 PM

Just a quick question, was this grouping from a single person? If so, I'm just curious as to why US collar insignia would be worn with Canadian jump wings?

#6 101combatvet

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 05:55 AM

A wing exchange? Fewer regulations back then.

Just a quick question, was this grouping from a single person? If so, I'm just curious as to why US collar insignia would be worn with Canadian jump wings?



#7 doyler

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 10:44 AM

Just a quick question, was this grouping from a single person? If so, I'm just curious as to why US collar insignia would be worn with Canadian jump wings?


If he was Canadian and was jump qualed with the Force he may have returned to a Canadian Para unit after the Force broke up.I know a vet whos Canadian battle dress has a set of the Para wings on it and he sports a Force patch sewn on right cuff.

RON

#8 doyler

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 10:49 AM

I personally do not like the shoulder cord.I have seen several in the hands of veterans and I own a couple from vets that I purchased myself and have never seen them wear this style.This cord reminds me of the red/white/blue cord you see on the early Civilian Military Training Camp campaign hats.

The arrows look ok but would have to see them first hand.The patches look fine.Both Versions of the ATF9 (KISKA) patch.The ones I have from Force vets tend to be the printed ones.

RON

Edited by doyler, 14 January 2008 - 10:51 AM.


#9 Tonomachi

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 06:19 PM

Where is it being offered? Thanks.


It was being offered for sale at an insignia show at Napredak Hall in San Jose, California. I don't know if it sold or not as I left early to watch football last Sunday.

#10 Tonomachi

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 06:23 PM

Just a quick question, was this grouping from a single person? If so, I'm just curious as to why US collar insignia would be worn with Canadian jump wings?


This supposedly came from one person although I think the US made FSSF shoulder sleeve patch was added as there was a smudge of glue on the back. The seller told me that someone found this grouping for him but kept an Italian hand made FSSF patch. The seller had the name of the vet but couldn't find it when I asked for it.

#11 101combatvet

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 07:00 PM

The wings look period. Yeah, the cord is questionable but it could be a replacement.

#12 Gary Cain

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 11:01 PM

The cord actually looks more like a World War one Prussian cord than anything else. I have one on a schnaps flask that looks the same. The insignia looks Ok but for this you really need to have it in hand to know for sure.


Gary

Edited by Gary Cain, 14 January 2008 - 11:02 PM.


#13 Tonomachi

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 07:47 PM

Thanks for everyone's input. I've attached copies of the photographs that were part of this grouping which did not come out very well due to the lighting inside of the building.

Attached Images

  • FSSF_Grp_5.JPG
  • FSSF_Grp8.JPG
  • FSSF_Grp7.JPG
  • FSSF_Grp6.JPG


#14 rmoore456

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 06:02 PM

Just a quick question, was this grouping from a single person? If so, I'm just curious as to why US collar insignia would be worn with Canadian jump wings?


The FSSF wore US uniforms. I believe if a Canadian was jump qualified prior to joining the FSSF he could wear the Canadian wings.

Ray

Edited by rmoore456, 16 January 2008 - 06:02 PM.


#15 rmoore456

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 06:05 PM

I do not like the cord. Does not look like my original nor any in photos. This one is a simple twist were the real ones are braided.

Ray

#16 militariacollector

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 06:42 PM

The FSSF wore US uniforms. I believe if a Canadian was jump qualified prior to joining the FSSF he could wear the Canadian wings.

Ray


I agree with the fact that they could wear the wings, but its the US collar tabs I'm curious about. Collar badges with "Canada" were produced and worn by Canadians wearing the American uniforms.
Check out these drawings of approved Canadian uniforms:
Officer: http://www.canadians...ficerjacket.png
EM: http://www.canadians...ssfemjacket.png

#17 Mr-X

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 09:00 PM

Just a quick question, was this grouping from a single person? If so, I'm just curious as to why US collar insignia would be worn with Canadian jump wings?


This pic might help to answer that question.

This is a Canadian officer with both wings. So it might have gone both ways.

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh145/leighm25a/MVC-0hh09S.jpg

#18 Allan H.

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 03:53 AM

This pic might help to answer that question.

This is a Canadian officer with both wings. So it might have gone both ways.


Outside a couple members of the cadre, the US troopers who were assigned to the FSSF came in without being jump qualified, so would not have had wings prior to earning them in Montana. The Canadian troops who came to the Force were already jump qualified. The Canadians would have either earned British jump wings by completing the school in England, or would have been in the group of Canadian parachutists who completed jump training at Fort Benning and were awarded Canadian jump wings. There would have been no opportunity for any of the Americans in the FSSF to have earned Canadian wings. SUre, it is possible that the veteran (if this is a legitimate group) acquired a Canadian wing from a Canadian Forceman, but he would not have been able to wear the brevet with his US wing. As has been mentioned previously, if the former owner was Canadian, then you would have seen matched "Canada" insignias rather than the US devices in the frame.
I am not convinced that the Canadian brevet is a World War II era brevet. It appears to me to have been cut down from a larger background. That is usually done to get rid of the tell-tale hump at the bottom of a post-war pattern Canadian jump wing.
Allan

#19 MattD

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 06:56 AM

Outside a couple members of the cadre, the US troopers who were assigned to the FSSF came in without being jump qualified, so would not have had wings prior to earning them in Montana. The Canadian troops who came to the Force were already jump qualified. The Canadians would have either earned British jump wings by completing the school in England, or would have been in the group of Canadian parachutists who completed jump training at Fort Benning and were awarded Canadian jump wings. There would have been no opportunity for any of the Americans in the FSSF to have earned Canadian wings. SUre, it is possible that the veteran (if this is a legitimate group) acquired a Canadian wing from a Canadian Forceman, but he would not have been able to wear the brevet with his US wing. As has been mentioned previously, if the former owner was Canadian, then you would have seen matched "Canada" insignias rather than the US devices in the frame.
I am not convinced that the Canadian brevet is a World War II era brevet. It appears to me to have been cut down from a larger background. That is usually done to get rid of the tell-tale hump at the bottom of a post-war pattern Canadian jump wing.
Allan


Aren't the style of the WW2 and Post WW2 Canadian wings a little different? As I recall the tips of the wings are different, one type having thin up turned and the other being the thicker style

Geez, I should remember I used to collect this stuff.

#20 101combatvet

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 08:24 AM

I have to disagree Alan.... the FSSF while in theater was getting replacements from various sources, disbanded Ranger battalions and also paratroopers direct from the Airborne school at Ft Benning. If you were a Forceman and you went through ANY jump training be it Canadian or US Army you would be entitled to wear both the Canadian and US jump wings.... just one of the benifits of being in a multi-national unit with no regulations to say otherwise. What happens today is a different story.... I wear both even though I only made one jump with the Canadians. My one jump was worth the usual three..... since it was in gusts up to 22-24 knots. :blink: The picture Mr-X posted says it all.

Outside a couple members of the cadre, the US troopers who were assigned to the FSSF came in without being jump qualified, so would not have had wings prior to earning them in Montana. The Canadian troops who came to the Force were already jump qualified. The Canadians would have either earned British jump wings by completing the school in England, or would have been in the group of Canadian parachutists who completed jump training at Fort Benning and were awarded Canadian jump wings. There would have been no opportunity for any of the Americans in the FSSF to have earned Canadian wings. SUre, it is possible that the veteran (if this is a legitimate group) acquired a Canadian wing from a Canadian Forceman, but he would not have been able to wear the brevet with his US wing. As has been mentioned previously, if the former owner was Canadian, then you would have seen matched "Canada" insignias rather than the US devices in the frame.
I am not convinced that the Canadian brevet is a World War II era brevet. It appears to me to have been cut down from a larger background. That is usually done to get rid of the tell-tale hump at the bottom of a post-war pattern Canadian jump wing.
Allan


Edited by 101combatvet, 29 January 2008 - 08:27 AM.


#21 Allan H.

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 01:24 PM

I have to disagree Alan.... the FSSF while in theater was getting replacements from various sources, disbanded Ranger battalions and also paratroopers direct from the Airborne school at Ft Benning. If you were a Forceman and you went through ANY jump training be it Canadian or US Army you would be entitled to wear both the Canadian and US jump wings.... just one of the benifits of being in a multi-national unit with no regulations to say otherwise. What happens today is a different story.... I wear both even though I only made one jump with the Canadians. My one jump was worth the usual three..... since it was in gusts up to 22-24 knots. :blink: The picture Mr-X posted says it all.


Ralph,
We will just have to disagree as I have yet to meet an American FSSF vet who was entitled to wear or even wore Canadian jump wings during the war. The only wings handed out at Fort Harrison were US wings. Canadian wings were tightly controlled and in very short supply early on with many Canadians only having one wing issued to them and no opportunities to get others. If you could provide a photo of an American in the FSSF wearing Canadian jump wings in WWII, then that will change the discussion considerably.
As for FSSF replacements, I do not recall reading or hearing of additional Canadians joining the ranks of the Force after they arrived in Italy. I believe that all of the replacements were Americans. Also, there was no method for jump qualifying these replacement in theater at the time, so most members of the FSSF went to Southern France via glider and by sea.
Allan

#22 101combatvet

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 04:59 PM

I can only speak for the Americans.... a good friend of my that was in the FSSF wears Canadian wings.... earned his US wings at Ft Benning and also was a Force replacement in Italy. I have know idea what the Canadians did and what their regulations said.... if there even were any during the period. The original question was asked about US brass and Canadian jump wings. A picture was presented of a Canadian officer wearing both US and Canadian wings.... I have no doubt that they did wing exchanges. I would agree that finding a picture would be difficult I have several and don't recall seeing them worn.... but most aren't even wearing their US wings.

Ralph,
We will just have to disagree as I have yet to meet an American FSSF vet who was entitled to wear or even wore Canadian jump wings during the war. The only wings handed out at Fort Harrison were US wings. Canadian wings were tightly controlled and in very short supply early on with many Canadians only having one wing issued to them and no opportunities to get others. If you could provide a photo of an American in the FSSF wearing Canadian jump wings in WWII, then that will change the discussion considerably.
As for FSSF replacements, I do not recall reading or hearing of additional Canadians joining the ranks of the Force after they arrived in Italy. I believe that all of the replacements were Americans. Also, there was no method for jump qualifying these replacement in theater at the time, so most members of the FSSF went to Southern France via glider and by sea.
Allan



#23 rmoore456

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 07:00 PM

I can only speak for the Americans.... a good friend of my that was in the FSSF wears Canadian wings.... earned his US wings at Ft Benning and also was a Force replacement in Italy. I have know idea what the Canadians did and what their regulations said.... if there even were any during the period. The original question was asked about US brass and Canadian jump wings. A picture was presented of a Canadian officer wearing both US and Canadian wings.... I have no doubt that they did wing exchanges. I would agree that finding a picture would be difficult I have several and don't recall seeing them worn.... but most aren't even wearing their US wings.


I read an interview, in the AAMUC newsletter I believe, of a 4th Ranger vet who was a replacement to the FSSF. He stated he wore jump wings even though he was not qualified because everybody else in the unit had them.

Ray

#24 rmoore456

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 07:05 PM

This pic might help to answer that question.

This is a Canadian officer with both wings. So it might have gone both ways.

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh145/leighm25a/MVC-0hh09S.jpg


I would be interested in knowing when and under what circumstances this photo was taken. After US uniforms were issued and the officers were able to purchase theirs Fredericks strictly forbid the intermixing of uniforms and insignia.

Ray

#25 101combatvet

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 09:13 AM

In my opinion this photograph was most likely taken sometime after the FSSF was disbanded January 6, 1945 at Menton, France.


I would be interested in knowing when and under what circumstances this photo was taken. After US uniforms were issued and the officers were able to purchase theirs Fredericks strictly forbid the intermixing of uniforms and insignia.

Ray




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