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BB&B Paratrooper Wing on eBay Probable Copy?


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#51 camopara

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 06:31 PM

This has been a great thread with many great BB&B wings being shown! I've been sitting on my hands letting everything soak in!

"Some additional interesting information. According to TIOH files, Bailey, Banks and Biddle Company was selected by the Army to produce these badges and was advised informally of this on 6 March 1941, they confirmed the order on 7 March and advised the Office of the Quartermaster General (OQMG) that work was schedule on a crash basis. Lead strikings from the BBB dies were provided to OQMG on 12 March 1941 for quality control. OQMG informed the 501st Parachute Battalion on 13 March 1941 that 350 badges were being shipped and due to arrive on 15 March 1941. This first run of badges was closely controlled and the 501st had to provide by-name rosters with service number to OQMG of who they would be issued to. On 23 April 1941 the 501st submitted a request to the Quartermaster General that an additional 400 badges be produced. Although no maker is specified, one can assume that BBB produced them as they were most likely still in possession of the original dies. "

I have heard this before and I think this is what misleads people into thinking that BB&B wings are extrememly rare. They are rare but they do turn up. I have also heard tales that early ParaMarines also received BB&B wings (I have no idea as to the validity of the story). With just a number of 750 out there people think that is all that was made. I think there are much more than that. Just look at all the different styles that BB&B marked their wings! I think that there are about 5 or 6 different BB&B hallmarks shown in this thread....alone very important to study!

Attached are pictures of my two BB&B wings. One set is named to an early member of the 501 PIB so they should be in the first 750 made?!

On a different Wosk note....I believe the Wosk wings to be 100% vintage. Yes, Wosk went out of business in '47 and was located on the west coast making most of their customers Navy and Marines. I have documented PM groups with these type of wings in the group. Brig, normally those in the green box are AE Co. made wings. If you ever take them out, which you shouldn't, the reverse should be marked as such.

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#52 camopara

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 06:32 PM

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#53 camopara

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 06:34 PM

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#54 Brig

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 08:06 PM

no worries there, they're never coming out of the box

that named BB&B is fantastic!

#55 101combatvet

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 08:52 PM

Ever research Jacob? Where did he end up?


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#56 camopara

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Posted 09 January 2008 - 04:54 PM

Nope, all I know is that he spent time in 501 and 502 PIBs.

#57 Sparky

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Posted 09 January 2008 - 06:16 PM

Nope, all I know is that he spent time in 501 and 502 PIBs.


In a quick search of the Pulles rosters I have found that Gronewold #06914770 was a PFC in A/501 and was later transfered to 2/503 like many of the early 501st Batt. was.

I hope that this has helped you out.

#58 camopara

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Posted 09 January 2008 - 07:09 PM

Hi Sparky,
Yep, I knew that much from the documents and other items that came with the group. I have his rigger document from A/ 501 PIB, and some other paperwork that it filled out B/502. I can't tell what he did during the war tho. A CIB came with the group so I assume he did something but the trail is dead after that. I'm in the waiting game with NARA, as per usual.

#59 APO472

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Posted 09 January 2008 - 08:08 PM

Hi Sparky,
Yep, I knew that much from the documents and other items that came with the group. I have his rigger document from A/ 501 PIB, and some other paperwork that it filled out B/502. I can't tell what he did during the war tho. A CIB came with the group so I assume he did something but the trail is dead after that. I'm in the waiting game with NARA, as per usual.


Personally...The "haves" will always debate the "have nots". I have played with this "stuff" for 30 years. I have never received a BB& B wing from a 101st Veteran but I have spent years (30+) on the research of WWII Airborne uniforms, insignia & and this kinda stuff. I don't do shows, attend conventions or sell stuff. I know where this wing came from and based on the person who is selling it, I don't have a problem with it at all.

I would put more credance in this wing than some fat rump sitting behind a table pontificating at a show hoping they make enough dough to make their rent.

My .02

Off to meet another 506th Veteran.

Currahee!

Jake Powers

Edited by APO472, 09 January 2008 - 08:11 PM.


#60 101combatvet

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 04:36 AM

Personally... I have purchased some nice original WW2 wings from some fat rumps sitting behind tables pontificating at a show. I'll get them any way I can. :D

I would put more credance in this wing than some fat rump sitting behind a table pontificating at a show hoping they make enough dough to make their rent.

My .02

Off to meet another 506th Veteran.

Currahee!

Jake Powers



#61 ehrentitle

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 04:09 PM

In a quick search of the Pulles rosters I have found that Gronewold #06914770 was a PFC in A/501 and was later transfered to 2/503 like many of the early 501st Batt. was.

I hope that this has helped you out.


There is a March 11, 1941 memo from Company A, 501st Parachute Infantry to the Commanding Officer, 501st indicating that Pvt 1c1 Jacob E. Gronewold, 6914770 would be jump qualified by March 15, 1941. This memo was submitted to the Institute of Heraldry (along with memos from the other companies in the battalion) on March 12, 1941 to justify issue of the BB&B Parachute Badges.

Captain WILLIAM P. YARBOROUGH O-20362 was listed on Company C's March 11, 1941 roster as having six jumps and as such was parachute qualified, the memo is signed by Yarborough as the company commander.

Kevin

Edited by ehrentitle, 10 January 2008 - 04:10 PM.


#62 camopara

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 06:14 PM

Kevin,
Thanks for that information.
I wish that I had his jump wing document, but I do have his rigger school document for September of 41.

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#63 pathfinder505

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 06:25 PM

This is a bit off the subject... but would the parachute rigger course and pathfinder training show up on his discharge?

#64 101combatvet

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 06:29 PM

:lol: Sounds like nothing changes.... that's a good way to push for an Airborne billet. :lol:

There is a March 11, 1941 memo from Company A, 501st Parachute Infantry to the Commanding Officer, 501st indicating that Pvt 1c1 Jacob E. Gronewold, 6914770 would be jump qualified by March 15, 1941. This memo was submitted to the Institute of Heraldry (along with memos from the other companies in the battalion) on March 12, 1941 to justify issue of the BB&B Parachute Badges.



#65 camopara

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 06:54 PM

This is a bit off the subject... but would the parachute rigger course and pathfinder training show up on his discharge?



Not always.

#66 ehrentitle

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 07:19 PM

Kevin,
Thanks for that information.
I wish that I had his jump wing document, but I do have his rigger school document for September of 41.


Camopara - Great rigger certificate. Riggers are one of my areas of interest. Kevin

#67 Jeremiah

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 07:39 PM

Gents, this thread was pointed out to the senior moderators and I had to do some pretty heavy editing. The information in here is great but tempers need to be minded as well as some statements curtailed. Please do bear this in mind as this thread is very informative and shouldn't be dumped due to personal squabbles.

#68 currahee506

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 07:45 PM

I am by no means an expert on this - not even close. I have a wing that is eerily similar to Mark's, and yes, we are friends. My wife also once took care of Gen. Yarborough too at one time ! The wing did not come from him. :rolleyes:

This particular piece came from the son of a 377th Pathfinder. I have a few of his patches, his bronze star and a one of his chutes, not to mention about 250 combat photos. Al the son knows is that it was his Dad's 'stuff.'

Is it legit? I have every reason to believe it is. I'll let everyone else debate this as I don't have the faintest...


Okay.. the suspense is killing me... no problems with MY wing??

Looks alot like Sparky's.

Hard to argue with Vet provenance.

Peace.

Rich

#69 101combatvet

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 08:03 PM

Vet or vet's son.... big difference. Look at who has endorsed the wing and who hasn't..... maybe a small conflict of interest? http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/think.gif Nothing personal but I don't like it..... http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbdown.gif

Okay.. the suspense is killing me... no problems with MY wing??

Looks alot like Sparky's.

Hard to argue with Vet provenance.

Peace.

Rich


Edited by 101combatvet, 10 January 2008 - 08:05 PM.


#70 KASTAUFFER

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 08:14 PM

Okay.. the suspense is killing me... no problems with MY wing??

Looks alot like Sparky's.

Hard to argue with Vet provenance.

Peace.

Rich


Can you post a larger photo with a close up of the hallmark ? Its hard to tell from the small photos you posted.

I have seen some interesting material that has come from Vets that they got at reunions, so you have to be careful .

The one thing that really bugs me about the wings Sparky has and the 2003 set is how sloppy the detail is at where the shrouds come together at the bottom of the V on the badge. Compare them with the others. The others are crisp, clean, and detailed ..the way I would expect BB&B to have done them in the early years.

Like I have said before... I am no wing guru, but after collecting medals for 30 years you learn to pick up on small details.


Kurt

Edited by KASTAUFFER, 10 January 2008 - 08:22 PM.


#71 pfrost

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 08:38 PM

Here is a WWI air service insignia made by BB&B. The white is some talcum that I used to highlight the scan. The other side of the hallmark says STERLING. I seem to have smudged it while scanning. As Kurt says, IMHO this hallmark seems more similar to my and the other's BB&B wings than to the other wings.

What is fascinating about this thread is that mixed in with the great wings, is some excellent documentation and reference material.

Not only are there patent drawings of what the original wing was intended to look like, but on a wing with almost ideal vet provenance (his name is on the wing for crying out loud!), there is confirmation in the records of him having received a BB&B wing.

Patrick

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#72 ehrentitle

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Posted 11 January 2008 - 05:25 AM

...What is fascinating about this thread is that mixed in with the great wings, is some excellent documentation and reference material...

Patrick


Patrick - You read my mind. I was thinking about starting a new thread on the design, development and issue of the first BB&B parachute badges. I have copies of all of the correspondence from the files of the Institute of Hearldry between TIOH, the 501st and BB&B and it is quite facinating. Originally the Infantry School had asked for a distinctive patch for parachute troops. Later when a badge was decided upon CPT Yarborough asked for a design simular in size to the pilots badge, which was rejected and a compromise was reached with TIOH which led to the current badge. Kevin

#73 camopara

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Posted 11 January 2008 - 04:32 PM

Kevin,
Please do the thread. Either add it here or start a freshie.

#74 ADMIN

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 10:37 AM

A fresh one might be the easiest for people to find.

#75 ehrentitle

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 01:12 PM

A fresh one might be the easiest for people to find.


WILCO, I'm still planning on starting another thread but got caught up in other activities. Hopefully I'll get a start tonight. If not then later in the week. Kevin


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