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EGA Rosettes for Bridle


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#1 kanemono

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 01:02 PM

Here is a pair of bridle rosettes with EGA's applied to the face. They were originally US Army rosettes with the face filed off. What are your thoughts?
Dick

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  • Rosettes_EGA_reverse.jpg
  • Rosettes_EGA_front.jpg


#2 suwanneetrader

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 07:15 PM

These or ones like them are on E-Bay for sale. Here is mine from a China Marines daughter in a group discussed on forum 6 or so months ago. Richard

China_Marine_Logrippo_items_I_kept__Small_.JPG China_Marine_Logrippo_items_I_kpt__Small_.JPG .JPG]

#3 suwanneetrader

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 07:17 PM

These or ones like them are on E-Bay for sale. Here is mine from a China Marines daughter in a group discussed on forum 6 or so months ago. Richard

China_Marine_Logrippo_items_I_kept__Small_.JPG China_Marine_Logrippo_items_I_kpt__Small_.JPG



#4 suwanneetrader

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 07:19 PM

Back altered or wire never addedChina_Marine_Logrippo_Mine____Small_.jpg

#5 B-17Guy

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 07:46 PM

Really cool set of M1909 rossettes (both a right and left) altered for use by the Marines.
Best, John

#6 usmcaviator

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 01:33 AM

I think these are fake. Why would Marines do this "in the field" when they could have received them from supply done the right way, which is one piece stamped. Plus these are 1940's - 1960's EGAs and cost about a buck a piece. China Marines wore these and the Army ones, and they were done with Horses by 1940. Take a set of $75 Army rosettes and two bucks worth of EGAs and hope to nab a sucker......

S/F,
Mike

#7 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:43 AM

Count me as another "Doubting Thomas", nothing about these makes sense. Here is another example of the bridle rosettes from the 30's... note the finish & wear exhibited.

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#8 kanemono

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 06:43 AM

I didn't buy these because I also think are are fakes. For the reasons stated above and also the patina. The green on the inside could have very easily been caused by horse sweat, however, the out side EGA's show no dirt or polish residue. The patina is too even and smooth. There are gaps where the EGA's meet the flat surface and there is nothing trapped in there. The reverse is corroded the obverse is clean as a whistle.
Dick

#9 B-17Guy

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 08:42 AM

Anything is possible, but has anyone emailed Greg to see where he
got them?

I have been collecting US Cav 1902-1945 for about 20 years (not USMC Horse) and have
bought a number of items from him in the last ten.
He has always been first rate.

I have a few items that folks have thought were not original, then I find a piece of film or photo
that shows it in use in the day. About years ago, a friend had an M1909 Bridle with a painted yellow brow band. Couldn't figure it out, he thought some kids ruined it, or some other post war civilian paint job. Then I called him six months later, after seeing a color film of the 11th Cav on parade with yellow brow bands on their bridles. Suddenly it was a cool piece.

Just a thought.

Piece may be bad, just trying to keep an open mind.

Best, John

#10 Bluehawk

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 08:56 AM

Chiming in... it seems to be an awfully lot of trouble to have gone to solely in order to create a very obscure insignia purely for the purpose of luring an unsuspecting buyer into a purchase, knowing in advance that such a buyer would have to be fairly sophisticated to even know such a device existed in the first place.

The difference in finish, or patina, doesn't bother me very much because both sides of each device appear to have been rendered about the same color overall.

Not an EGA or USMC or cavalry expert by any means, but I did deal with artifact grade sculptural metals of many kinds in museum collections for a long time.

Whatever the case may be, I find the modification to be ingenious and more likely to be authentic than not - given all the possible things GIs have done to their stuff over the decades.

#11 usmcaviator

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 10:27 AM

Chiming in... it seems to be an awfully lot of trouble to have gone to solely in order to create a very obscure insignia purely for the purpose of luring an unsuspecting buyer into a purchase, knowing in advance that such a buyer would have to be fairly sophisticated to even know such a device existed in the first place.

The difference in finish, or patina, doesn't bother me very much because both sides of each device appear to have been rendered about the same color overall.

Not an EGA or USMC or cavalry expert by any means, but I did deal with artifact grade sculptural metals of many kinds in museum collections for a long time.

Whatever the case may be, I find the modification to be ingenious and more likely to be authentic than not - given all the possible things GIs have done to their stuff over the decades.

"awfully lot of trouble" ????? When single "real" USMC bridle rosette brings between $300-500, you can see why the desire to fake a set would be there. Not a lot of trouble when you are talking about possibly $800-1000 for a real set.

S/F,
Mike

#12 Bluehawk

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 12:15 PM

"awfully lot of trouble" ????? When single "real" USMC bridle rosette brings between $300-500, you can see why the desire to fake a set would be there. Not a lot of trouble when you are talking about possibly $800-1000 for a real set.

S/F,
Mike

:lol: The "trouble" to which I refer would in the making of the thing, not in the evil manifestation of a forger's art.

What is more, supposing one were to have the necessary motive, the time, the tools and the know-how then still, why do this over a set of Army rosettes? All that filing off or filling in, etc etc etc. It just seems quite a stretch.

But then, I'm not a forger of anything.

I have heard of some in that black art going to extremes to match patina and so forth - it's just that in this case, the thing simply doesn't look fake to me. Not having had it in my hands or being an expert on such devices, makes this educated guesswork at best.

Just thought I'd mention a strong instinct about it though...

#13 kanemono

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 02:05 PM

I will throw a real monkey wrench into the discussion. Here is a well documented chrome horse bit, watering bit, spurs and a pair if Army rosettes that were used by a horse Marine in China in the late 30's. I have photographs showing these exact chrome bit and spurs. All of the rosettes that can be seen have the large protruding globe shown in the pictures of the documented Horse Marine rosettes. However, when the Horse Marines paraded in full dress everything was chrome including the sword hilts (I have Photographs of the chrome hilts) . You cannot see the full dress rosettes because the top strap of the bridle and rosette are covered with sheepskin. I think all horse equipment was supplied by the Army from the Phillippines. None of the enlisted stirrup hoods have USMC on them and I have dozens of photographs showing the stirrup hoods of the enlisted men.
To get back to the EGA rosettes. These could have been rosettes made for use during or after WWII.
Dick

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  • angstadt_rosettes__spurs_and_bitt.jpg


#14 suwanneetrader

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:57 PM

Never the less the pair on E-Bay that this thread opened with sold incld Shipping for $418.00 Richard :think:

#15 suwanneetrader

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:00 PM

My grouping had the Rosette (as he served with the 4th Regt in Haiti and China 1928 - 31) and (according to his daughter) he had the later EGA's as he was drafted in 1944 for WWII and served in the 6th Div. Richard

Edited by suwanneetrader, 13 March 2012 - 05:08 PM.


#16 usmcaviator

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 01:01 AM

I will throw a real monkey wrench into the discussion. Here is a well documented chrome horse bit, watering bit, spurs and a pair if Army rosettes that were used by a horse Marine in China in the late 30's. I have photographs showing these exact chrome bit and spurs. All of the rosettes that can be seen have the large protruding globe shown in the pictures of the documented Horse Marine rosettes. However, when the Horse Marines paraded in full dress everything was chrome including the sword hilts (I have Photographs of the chrome hilts) . You cannot see the full dress rosettes because the top strap of the bridle and rosette are covered with sheepskin. I think all horse equipment was supplied by the Army from the Phillippines. None of the enlisted stirrup hoods have USMC on them and I have dozens of photographs showing the stirrup hoods of the enlisted men.
To get back to the EGA rosettes. These could have been rosettes made for use during or after WWII.
Dick

Dick,
This lot that you show also came with an rosette (standard black painted sample with stamped Corps device), don't know if you know that. I still own it along with the Yellow Enameled Diamond.

Yes these could have been made by anyone post WW2, maybe made by a lonely retired USMC cow poke who lived on a farm....these could have been made for Reckless the Korean War pony...or they could have been easily made last month. Bottom line.. I dont think these were ever close to a true operating Marine horse unit. Post WW2 horses were gone from the USMC... save for maybe a general's private mount...or the Camp Pendleton stables/rodeo. BTW...It is very easy for anyone to work with brass and copper, I'm sure an inclined farrier could do it. Believe em if you want to, these dont add up to me, and not something I'd want in my collection. I'd be more inclined to believe em with earlier corps devices attached, but then again you would have to believe the story, and as they say...buy the piece... not the story.

S/F,
Mike

#17 kanemono

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 06:35 AM

Hi Mike,
Yes I knew that the Angstadt group came with the stamped EGA rosette and Diamond. I should have mentioned that the group included the stamped rosette. I have a picture of it but didn't want to include it without your permission. Please keep me on your list for the rosette and diamond. I totally agree with you about the rosettes on EBAY. They are definitely not official. "Yes these could have been made by anyone post WW2, maybe made by a lonely retired USMC cow poke who lived on a farm....these could have been made for Reckless the Korean War pony...or they could have been easily made last month. Bottom line.. I dont think these were ever close to a true operating Marine horse unit. Post WW2 horses were gone from the USMC... save for maybe a general's private mount...or the Camp Pendleton stables/rodeo."
I posted the chromed Army rosettes because I thought it was interesting that they could have been worn by Marines in China.
Dick

#18 Dirk

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:54 PM

Mike's Post #16 is IMO dead on. On the subject of Army issue, I wanted to point out, I think after the first few years of the Mounted's existence...they stopped using the Army's Philippines supply channel and reached back through their own stateside.

#19 Brig

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:03 AM

Have to agree...bad. Not much use of horses post-30s, these also look cheaply made, the finish isn't even completely removed. May be a novelty item, or as stated, something someone did for their personal ride at some point, or meant to completely deceive

I'd be willing to pay 20 bucks as an interesting discussion piece, but no more

Edited by Brig, 27 March 2012 - 08:04 AM.


#20 Bluehawk

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:45 AM

... something someone did for their personal ride at some point, or meant to completely deceive

Let us (as I do) assume they were made with sincerity by someone for personal use. Judging solely by the form and features of these specific EGA, then from what historical period of the EGA might they have originated?

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#21 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:53 AM

The collar emblems seen in the first post were used from 37 - 56.

#22 Bluehawk

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:14 AM

The collar emblems seen in the first post were used from 37 - 56.

Thank you. I'd read a previous estimate of time frame for them, but wondered still if it could be made more precise.

All the more reason for me to believe that these were indeed for personal use. Someone with the talent to do that much metal work as well (in my opinion) as it was done, would also probably have known that the EGA were not of the China Marines era and could not be "passed off" as such... not to mention that any buyer who DID know the era of the emblems would have instantly noted Army emblems on reverse and been skeptical of period authenticity.

I think... :lol:

#23 Jack's Son

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 01:45 PM

What an education from a simple picture! As always, I'm impressed.

#24 Brig

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