FAAA Posted March 8, 2012 Share #1 Posted March 8, 2012 Hope this is the right area. Now I am briefed on the TO&E of the various WWII Cavalry Reconnaissance troops that are part of an infantry division and know they take their number from the Division they are part of, ie 4th Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop, 4th Infantry Division. Can someone tell me what would be the correct numbers that would appear on the Troops Guidon, I have an idea it would simply be 4 over 4 on a Guidon similar to the picture below: Would I be correct. Regards Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper704 Posted March 8, 2012 Share #2 Posted March 8, 2012 The "F" revers to the Troop (Company), so that might probably be right. Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted March 9, 2012 Share #3 Posted March 9, 2012 The WWII Infantry Division Reconaissance troops while not Infantry, fell under the Cavalry they did not have Cavalry in their title, they are known as simply Reconaissance Troops Mechanized, having said that, however I will be the first to admit that I haven't a clue what these type of units Guidons looked like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper704 Posted March 9, 2012 Share #4 Posted March 9, 2012 Lineage might be involved too. Maybe they took over the guidon over from a former unit or so. Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpw_42 Posted March 9, 2012 Share #5 Posted March 9, 2012 I believe this guidon is for Troop F, 7th Cavalry Regiment. I'm not sure where the 7th Cav was based during WW2, but that regimental lineage is not connected to a division, as the regiments pre-date the divisions created during WW1. There were divisions during the Civil War, but (to my knowledge) modern units don't carry any lineage related to the CW divisions; modern divisions all trace back to 1917 or 1918. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Ragan Posted March 9, 2012 Share #6 Posted March 9, 2012 I believe this guidon is for Troop F, 7th Cavalry Regiment. I'm not sure where the 7th Cav was based during WW2, but that regimental lineage is not connected to a division, as the regiments pre-date the divisions created during WW1. There were divisions during the Civil War, but (to my knowledge) modern units don't carry any lineage related to the CW divisions; modern divisions all trace back to 1917 or 1918. Steve Steve is correct. The divisions of the Union Army during the Civil War are NOT connected to the divisions formed during WWI. I also believe the guideon is for F Troop, 7th Cavalry Regiment. As to time frame, I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAAA Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share #7 Posted March 9, 2012 The illustration, was included only as an indication of the Cav colors and placing of the number and letters only In July 1943 the Company sized Mechanised Reconnaissance troop assigned to the new triangular Infantry Division was redesignated a Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop and bore the number of their parent Division. The Troop did indeed carry the Cavalry name and Branch of service from 43 onwards. As they were of Company Size, I am confident they had a Guidon and that guidon was in the Cavalry colours of Red over White, but can only take a guess at the numbering, the top being the troop number and the bottom the division number in which it served. It would be nice to see a picture example to confirm the theory. Regards Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted March 9, 2012 Share #8 Posted March 9, 2012 The illustration, was included only as an indication of the Cav colors and placing of the number and letters only In July 1943 the Company sized Mechanised Reconnaissance troop assigned to the new triangular Infantry Division was redesignated a Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop and bore the number of their parent Division. The Troop did indeed carry the Cavalry name and Branch of service from 43 onwards. As they were of Company Size, I am confident they had a Guidon and that guidon was in the Cavalry colours of Red over White, but can only take a guess at the numbering, the top being the troop number and the bottom the division number in which it served. It would be nice to see a picture example to confirm the theory. Regards Lee In the Armored Divisions the Recon units had in their designation Cavalry as in Reconnaissance Squadron Mecz, earlier they did not have the Cavalry in their title but were known as Reconnaissance Battalions ( Armored), but in the Infantry Division they were known as Reconnaissance Troops Mecz. After WWII, the Infantry Divisional Recon Troops were renamed Reconnaissance Companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAAA Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share #9 Posted March 9, 2012 Further to the above, this was sent to me and illustrates the Guidon of the 26th Cavalry Reconaissance Troop, 26th Infantry Division : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAAA Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share #10 Posted March 9, 2012 In the Armored Divisions the Recon units had in their designation Cavalry as in Reconnaissance Squadron Mecz, earlier they did not have the Cavalry in their title but were known as Reconnaissance Battalions ( Armored), but in the Infantry Division they were known as Reconnaissance Troops Mecz. After WWII, the Infantry Divisional Recon Troops were renamed Reconnaissance Companies. After Action report of the 29th Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop Mecs June 1944 1. Summary of Operations of the 29th Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop Mecs. For the month of June, 1944 is submitted. This operation is divided into five (5) Phases as follows: Phase One: "Landing Operations, France". The first platoon, 29th Cavalry Reconnaissance Troops Mecs. attached to the 116th Infantry Combat Team landed on Omaha Beaches 6 June 1944, 0800 hours (D-Day, H plus 30). It was divided into seven (7) groups and operated a Commanding General's Radio Voice Net reporting the advances, locations, and resistances met by the assault companies. this xxx was operated until 0200, D plus 1 at which time the platoon started reorganizing. The 29th Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop Mecs. less one platoon landed on Omaha Beach D plus 2 at 1630 hours proceeding to transit area, at Vierville sur Mer and was joined by the 1st platoon. Phase Two: "Grandcamp les Bains, France". D plus 2 at 2000 hours the troop proceeded to assigned area at Cricqueville en Bessin with the mission of reconnoitering roads in area of St. Pierre du Mont, Grandcamp les Bains, Corbonville, La Cambe. Mission started at 0500 hours, D plus 3. Reconnaissance parties located mines, isolated groups and pockets of enemy resistance. Phase Three: "Isigny - Carentan Operations". D plus 3 at 1200 hours unit moved from Cricqueville area with mission of reconnoitering roads west of Isigny. Proceeding to Isigny this unit captured fifteen (15) prisoners of an isolated group, continuing thru Isigny mopping up small pockets of enemy resistance and snipers which had infiltrated thru front lines. Arriving 1400 hours at xxx sur le Vey found that the bridge over Vire River was blown. 1700 hours received orders to cross Vire River and establish a bridge head. Working in coordination with two (2) platoons of the 175th Infantry the unit crossed the river under enemy fire. Rafts were used to float vehicles and personal across. This unit then supported the Infantry assault with mortars, 37mm guns, and automatic weapons, xxx enemy strong points. Bridgehead was completed 2130 hours. The troop covered the Engineers with fire while bridge was constructed over the river. Unit pulled back at 0300 hours D plus 4 to be resupplied. At D plus 4, 0530 hours the troop moved out across the river and pushed reconnaissance to west. Strong enemy resistance was met along Isigny-Carentan road. Reconnaissance was pushed to the outskirts of Carentan by 0800 hours where upon found roadblock covered by enemy automatic and anti-tank weapons. 1030 hours the troop was given a mission to establish contact with the 101st U.S. Airborne Division. Contact was established at 1500 hours after a fierce engagement resulting in the capture of numerous prisoners. Contact was maintained until 1800 hours at when time the mission was taken over by Combat Command A, 2nd U.S. Armored Division. Unit moved south to area near La Foret, closed in area 2400 hours. Phase Four: "Moon sur Elle Operations". On D plus 5 the 3rd platoon received the mission to maintain contact between 101st U.S. Airborne and 175th Infantry Regiment and was relieved of mission 1100 hours, D plus 6 and moved to St. marguerite de Elle. D plus 5, 1st and 2nd platoons received mission to reconnoiter roads qouth of Vire, Moon sur Elle, St. Marguerite de Elle. Strong enemy positions encountered. Observation post established at Moon sur Elle. Foot and motor patrols were continued until D plus 8. D plus 9, at 0500 hours, 29th Cavalry reconnaissance Troops Mecs. captured the village of La Meauppe holding town until D plus 11. Reconnaissance was pushed from this position until being relieved by 119th Infantry, 30th Infantry Division. Phase Five: "Patrolling Operations". From D plus 11 to D plus 14 the troop was used as contact element between adjacent divisions and liaison between regiments of this division. On D plus 15 the unit was ordered into division reserve. Active foot and motor patrols were maintained day and night contacting units of the division and patrolling to the front and exposed right flank. Edward C. Jones Jr. 1st Lt., Cavalry Commanding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted March 10, 2012 Share #11 Posted March 10, 2012 Further to the above, this was sent to me and illustrates the Guidon of the 26th Cavalry Reconaissance Troop, 26th Infantry Division : Im not understanding this Cavarly tag on the Infantry Divisional Recon Troops, every where I look, I have seen these units called Reconaissance Troops, for instance, I have the original 1947 89th Infantry Division yearbook, here it has the rosters for all units, you guessed it it says 89th Reconnaissance Troop, in Stanton there listed as Reconaissance Troops Mecz, the award for the DSC for one SGT Lawrence Hatfield list him in the 26th Reconaissance Troop, but in the DFC site it say 26th Cavarly Reconaissance Troop, here the use of the word Cavalry I believe it is a modern interpretation, desipte it being a "Official Citation". please explain this. Also for instance in the link, you will see the Order of Battle ETO compiled in December 1945 in Paris by the office of the Theater Historian ( SHAEF I gather ) you will see in each and every case under the Order of Battle of the Infantry Division, the recon troops are not designated Cavalry. http://www.history.army.mil/documents/ETO-OB/ETOOB-TOC.htm Good deal on the Guidon, while it is a Cavalry one I believe that it was used only as the most obvious choice since these units were not under the Infantry Branch, but under Cavalry, and while these units did have trained men, trained I believe at the Cavalry Replacement Center Fort Riley Kansas for some reason in the case of the Recon Troops of the Infantry Division were not from what I can tell not Cavalry, confusing isnt it. Could it be the the use of the word Cavalry was an unofficial designation used and tolerated within the divsions by those Recon Troops who were inclinded to use this designation, for instance the after action report from the 29th "Cavalry" Recon Troop from the above reply ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAAA Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share #12 Posted March 10, 2012 It is well documentated that the Infantry Division Reconnaissance Troops were Cavalry branch of service; wearing the crossed sabre and yellow BOS piped garrison hats. There were over 100 Divisional Cavalry units including Squadrons for the Armoured Units (Less two heavy Armoured Divisions who maintained a Non Cavalry Reconnaissance Battalion) a Cavalry Recce Troop were assigned to each Infantry Division. The Full Title of these Troops were Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop (Mechanised) The documents mentioned above are heavily abbreviated as can be seen by the other unit designations not being used in full. The first document is dated post war! I am briefed on the history of the Units we represent in Living History, Cavalry being one of them, but what I am after here is any intel on the Guidon used by the Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop (Mechanised) assigned to the Infantry Division. I am quite confident it followed all other Cavalry Troop patterns, but not totally sure of the numbering and lettering, although the second illustration would seem quite feasible with the number of the troop, which we know follows the division number, ie for the 1st Infantry Divisions Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop, it would be 1st Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop and for the 4th Infantry Division it would be 4th Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop, etc, etc, with the lower part of the Guidon denoting the units designation "RCN" as I have seen similar of a 86th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron Flag (Colors) I am fully aware that the units designation sometimes left the Cavalry out, certainly when dealing with those Troops assigned to the Infantry Divisions, however the post is with respect in regards to the Guidon pattern adopted. Regards to all Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Willaert Posted March 10, 2012 Share #13 Posted March 10, 2012 Hi Lee, FWIW here is a picture of a captured German flag, signed by members of the Divisional Reconnaissance unit of the 29ID... Note that it is marked 29 Cavalry Rec(onnaissance) Tr(oop) There are more pictures of this flag at: http://www.pararesearchteam.com/Trophy.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted March 11, 2012 Share #14 Posted March 11, 2012 Found this site. As we see it does state CAVALRY Reconaissance Troop Mecz, HUM, I am still stump as to why the word Cavalry is ommited in the overwhemling majority if not all Order of Battles or Unit title rosters from the period. http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/FM/PDFs/FM2-20.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAAA Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share #15 Posted March 11, 2012 Thank you Johan Lovely picture. I know you are a fan of the 29th for sure, any pics of the Rcn Troops vehicle at all. May have been covered before but I am guessing markings would be: 29-X STAR R-1 (Through to how many vehicles in the Troop)!! Regards Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted March 11, 2012 Share #16 Posted March 11, 2012 Thank you Johan Lovely picture. I know you are a fan of the 29th for sure, any pics of the Rcn Troops vehicle at all. May have been covered before but I am guessing markings would be: 29-X STAR R-1 (Through to how many vehicles in the Troop)!! Regards Lee Im pretty sure I seen a photo somewhere with a 29th Recon vehical Somewhere, it if I can recall said 29 RCN. I look at some of my books. On this edit. I found the Photo, it is in Stantons WWII Order of Battle, a photograph at the end of the Cavalry Squadrons and Reconnaissance Battions section, a Greyhound of the 29th recon troop in what can only be Normandy, on the front angled lower plate we see 29R-2, the number 2 I gather is the vehical number within the Troop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Willaert Posted March 11, 2012 Share #17 Posted March 11, 2012 Lee, Check out this topic (page 2) http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...27418&st=20 And this one http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...amp;hl=markings Let me know if you need more, either here or via email... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted March 11, 2012 Share #18 Posted March 11, 2012 Lee, Check out this topic (page 2) http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...27418&st=20 And this one http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...amp;hl=markings Let me know if you need more, either here or via email... Thanks Johan, FAAA you will see the photo of the 29th Division Greyhound in the First link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAAA Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share #19 Posted March 12, 2012 Lee, Check out this topic (page 2) http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...27418&st=20 And this one http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...amp;hl=markings Let me know if you need more, either here or via email... Thanks Johan Can one assume that while in England, units adopted the more conventional vehicle markings and the Barcode was adopeted by some but not all units for the Overlord operation. Interested at this stage in 4th Infantry Division. Kind Regards Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Willaert Posted March 12, 2012 Share #20 Posted March 12, 2012 Thanks Johan Can one assume that while in England, units adopted the more conventional vehicle markings and the Barcode was adopeted by some but not all units for the Overlord operation. Interested at this stage in 4th Infantry Division. Kind Regards Lee The 1ID and 29ID applied the tactical markings in the buildup to Overlord in the UK.... Barcodes were appliedon vehicles by the 1ID, but not the 29ID.... As fas as I know and looking at wartime pictures, the 4ID did not use tactical markings but used the standard ones and no barcodes on vehicles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Willaert Posted March 12, 2012 Share #21 Posted March 12, 2012 According to TO&E 2-27 Infantry Division's Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop, Mechanized dated 15 July 1943 Troop HQ was issued 4 Trucks, 1/4Ton (of which one Jeep was equipped with SCR510 and another with a M1919A4 .30Cal MG on M31 pedestal) and 3 Armored Cars, Light, M8 Admin, Supply and Mess Section had 1 Jeep, 1 GMC with trailer 1 Ton and 3 HT M3A1 Maintenance Section had 1 Jeep, 1 HT with winch, 1 M8 3 Reconnaissance Platoons each had an Armored Car Section (3xM8) and an Scout Section (6xJeep) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAAA Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share #22 Posted March 12, 2012 According to TO&E 2-27 Infantry Division's Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop, Mechanized dated 15 July 1943 Troop HQ was issued 4 Trucks, 1/4Ton (of which one Jeep was equipped with SCR510 and another with a M1919A4 .30Cal MG on M31 pedestal) and 3 Armored Cars, Light, M8 Admin, Supply and Mess Section had 1 Jeep, 1 GMC with trailer 1 Ton and 3 HT M3A1 Maintenance Section had 1 Jeep, 1 HT with winch, 1 M8 3 Reconnaissance Platoons each had an Armored Car Section (3xM8) and an Scout Section (6xJeep) How much did this change in 1944 by the time the 4th Cav Rcn Troop were getting ready for Overlord I wonder! Alway great info gratefully recieved Johan. Regards Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Willaert Posted March 13, 2012 Share #23 Posted March 13, 2012 How much did this change in 1944 by the time the 4th Cav Rcn Troop were getting ready for Overlord I wonder! I think that TO&E only changed in September 1944... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAAA Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share #24 Posted March 13, 2012 I think that TO&E only changed in September 1944... Scouted around and found this: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/FM/PDFs/FM2-20.pdf Looks like the Cav Rcn Troop Bible for pre-Normandy UK Training and Overlord operation! Regards Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Target Posted July 13, 2012 Share #25 Posted July 13, 2012 HI I'm looking for 1st reconnaissance troop (1st infantry division) distinctive unit insignia. From what I know this outfit was created wiht cadre from the 3rd cav regiment. The men of this unit were they wearing the 3rd cav regiment crest ? or this one ? Best regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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