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WW1 Dallas Wings Real or Fake


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#26 KurtA

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 02:10 PM

Here's another example of a Dallas Wing (with false embroidered U.S.) and a jumbo size WW1 wing.
Kurt


Wings_WW1.jpg

#27 Paul C.

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 02:24 PM

Great thread guys, BTY the company that made the almost impossible to distinguish Dallas wings was the "House of Swords". He apparently made LOT of incredibly well made fakes of all types, lot of Nazi crap, and WWI wings. I believe he was murdered in the early 80's. Apparently a family member has been selling his old stock on eBay through an intermediary. Including these "Pasquali " marked Airship wings:
pasquali_airship.jpg
A set of these turned up in a 30 year old collection, and then I bought these on eBay a few years ago. I have held 3 of these, and each one had a different pin. A collector who had access to a spectrometer (?) have a set analyzed and apparently the silver was of a type used in the 40s!! Scary!
A little off topic but good info to have,

Paul

#28 Gary Cain

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 12:20 PM

I remember when he was murdered. The rumour was he was killed by some German collectors because of his near perfect helmet decals but who knows. He did make some excellent Dallas Wing reproductions. They were done in very small lots of around 15-20 and done by a jeweller, Patrick I believe the wing you found in the flea market to be one of those wings, his first couple of runs had the metal shield too close to the wing sections, (some nearly overlapped if memory serves) and then he found a better constructor who was rumored to live in Salt Lake City(it's amazing how many rumors surrounded this guy!) and that's when the wings became really, really good. They were sold on Manions for years and one faker in particular bought a whole years production at one time and has been feeding them out slowly over the years.


Gary








Great thread guys, BTY the company that made the almost impossible to distinguish Dallas wings was the "House of Swords". He apparently made LOT of incredibly well made fakes of all types, lot of Nazi crap, and WWI wings. I believe he was murdered in the early 80's. Apparently a family member has been selling his old stock on eBay through an intermediary. Including these "Pasquali " marked Airship wings:
pasquali_airship.jpg
A set of these turned up in a 30 year old collection, and then I bought these on eBay a few years ago. I have held 3 of these, and each one had a different pin. A collector who had access to a spectrometer (?) have a set analyzed and apparently the silver was of a type used in the 40s!! Scary!
A little off topic but good info to have,

Paul



#29 cwnorma

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 05:44 PM

Here is a recent set of wings I acquired:

wings.jpg


Chris

#30 KASTAUFFER

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 06:50 PM

Here is a recent set of wings I acquired:


Chris


Chris

I love the hand chased detail in this wing http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

Kurt

#31 cwnorma

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 02:44 AM

Kurt,

Thanks! I am currently on vacation (leave) at my Parents house in FL and these were at a gun show in Lakeland. They leave me in a quandary. They appear to be 800 silver, although they are marked "sterling", and have toned to a pleasing grey-blue hue as you see in the picture. So here is my thinking; I normally like to lightly polish my wings since sterling tarnishes to that ugly black. But being 800 or coin silver these have "toned" instead. Campbell, in his book, stated that these were European made, and European silver content was slightly different from American. I think I will leave these as-is for now.

On a side note, these must have cost a pretty penny back in the day as the workmanship on them is exquisite. Even the spinners are gold plated.

Chris

Chris

I love the hand chased detail in this wing http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

Kurt



#32 Tonomachi

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 02:23 PM

I don't collect WW1 flight wings but a number of years ago an insignia dealer in Northern California showed me one of these wings that he had gotten in an estate sale along with a photograph of the pilot wearing the wing. I forgot what the asking price was or the name of the pilot but I did take the attached photographs for reference.

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#33 cwnorma

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 03:30 PM

That appears to be a great little group, and the wings appear to be good ones. But, as is always the case with these "Dallas" type wings, the fakes are so good, that you almost have to hold them in your hands and compare them to known good ones to be absolutely sure.

Thanks for sharing it!

Chris


I don't collect WW1 flight wings but a number of years ago an insignia dealer in Northern California showed me one of these wings that he had gotten in an estate sale along with a photograph of the pilot wearing the wing. I forgot what the asking price was or the name of the pilot but I did take the attached photographs for reference.



#34 Gary Cain

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 04:39 PM

That is an excellent set of wings. Note how the wool backing has changed color through the years, textbook.


Gary

I don't collect WW1 flight wings but a number of years ago an insignia dealer in Northern California showed me one of these wings that he had gotten in an estate sale along with a photograph of the pilot wearing the wing. I forgot what the asking price was or the name of the pilot but I did take the attached photographs for reference.



#35 Gary Cain

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 04:41 PM

Hi Chris,

By all means I would leave them alone. 800 fine silver is a European standard and means the metal is 80% silver (800 parts of 1000) so would not rate STERLING classification in the UK or here in the States. All that aside though they are indeed a beautiful set of wings!


Gary

Kurt,

Thanks! I am currently on vacation (leave) at my Parents house in FL and these were at a gun show in Lakeland. They leave me in a quandary. They appear to be 800 silver, although they are marked "sterling", and have toned to a pleasing grey-blue hue as you see in the picture. So here is my thinking; I normally like to lightly polish my wings since sterling tarnishes to that ugly black. But being 800 or coin silver these have "toned" instead. Campbell, in his book, stated that these were European made, and European silver content was slightly different from American. I think I will leave these as-is for now.

On a side note, these must have cost a pretty penny back in the day as the workmanship on them is exquisite. Even the spinners are gold plated.

Chris



#36 cwnorma

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 04:50 PM

Gary,

Thank you for your kind words. I too think they look nice as is.

Chris


Hi Chris,

By all means I would leave them alone. 800 fine silver is a European standard and means the metal is 80% silver (800 parts of 1000) so would not rate STERLING classification in the UK or here in the States. All that aside though they are indeed a beautiful set of wings!
Gary



#37 John Cooper

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 08:34 PM

This thread came up in a discussion with a fellow collector and it is so interesting and informative I thought I will bump it back to the top.

John

Edited by John Cooper, 12 June 2009 - 08:06 PM.


#38 AustinO

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 09:36 PM

Holy crap am I glad I only collect WWII wings direct from their estates! You guys are....devoted?

#39 Gary Cain

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 11:52 PM

Demented more like guvna!

Holy crap am I glad I only collect WWII wings direct from their estates! You guys are....devoted?



#40 CliffP

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 01:48 AM

Here is a recent set of wings I acquired:

wings.jpg


Chris


Kurt,

Thanks! I am currently on vacation (leave) at my Parents house in FL and these were at a gun show in Lakeland. They leave me in a quandary. They appear to be 800 silver, although they are marked "sterling", and have toned to a pleasing grey-blue hue as you see in the picture. So here is my thinking; I normally like to lightly polish my wings since sterling tarnishes to that ugly black. But being 800 or coin silver these have "toned" instead. Campbell, in his book, stated that these were European made, and European silver content was slightly different from American. I think I will leave these as-is for now.

On a side note, these must have cost a pretty penny back in the day as the workmanship on them is exquisite. Even the spinners are gold plated.

Chris

Chris,

Unless tested, be reluctant to assume this badge is made of anything less than sterling. Sterling silver contains a minimum of 92.5% pure silver and 7.5% other metals, usually copper which would easily account for the pleasing grey-blue hue of your badge.

One more thing. Duncan Campbell wrote the original draft for his book back in 1972 and the assumption then was that these badges may have been made in Europe; however, a lot of water has gone over the dam sense 1972. Sometime in the mid to late 1990s, Duncan realized that every biographical example of this badge that he had been shown since 1972, there were several, was attributed to an RMA who never got overseas. :think: It was then that he became convinced they had actually been made in the USA; however, shortly before having said that, Terry Morris' book was published which referred to Duncan's original belief in 1972. That only added to the myth :pinch: that these badges were made in Europe.

Congratulations Chris, it is a beautiful badge. :thumbsup:

Cliff

#41 hawk3370

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 06:55 PM

Phillip,
Some very good comments and advice have been given by members of the forum. I would like to make a couple observations that may help you in your quest for the early wings. A pair of sterling wings with gold US cost $3.00 in 1918. The gold US at that time only cost a couple pennies. I have noticed that a number of WW1 wings showing up on the market have a plated US or brass US. To my knowledge no original WW1 wing was made with a plated or brass US. Gold was just to inexpensive at the time and easier to work with. The "Dallas" wings had very close small stitching on the back and the center portion between the catch and pin had a leather strip covering the threads. I have seen the leather with both a cross design and pebbled finish. These were glued on so on the original wings you may find traces of the glue if the leather is missing. Look for small beads of silver in the feathering on the wings. this is a direct give away of a cast wing. If you apply all the advice that has been given by the very knowledgable members of this forum you should be in a better position to make a determination as to fake or original. However the best way is to handle the originals so you can see how they were constructed and finished. Good luck in your collecting endeavers.

Sincerly, Terry R. Morris (Maj Ret)


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