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White felt Ship's Detachment


Steverino
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All,

 

Just running this photo of a white felt Ship's Detachment patch (beside the normal one for comparison) to see if anyone has ever seen one before, owns another one, or can offer any info about why it came to be.

 

Thanks for any info.

 

Patch Johnson

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Steve that is one neat variation.I have never seen one in 32 years of buying patch collection nor seen one in a collection.I hope some one can tell us all what its for.Scotty

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I would say that it is possible that the patch was once red and all of the dye has been washed out of the felt? I've seen a couple other patches (not military though) where once they were soaked in a cleaning solution that they lost a lot of their color. It is possible that the dye wasn't fixed into the felt fabric.

 

Just a thought.

Allan

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Wow! Beautiful patch, I have never seen one like that before.

 

I vaguely remember there was a white USMC summer jacket that used for s very short time in the late 30's but not sure if they were worn through the 40's. But it could have been a Khaki jacket just as well. I will have to check my books.

 

Regardless of it's origins and intent, it's a nice patch I wouldn't mind coming across!

 

Leonardo

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Wow! Beautiful patch, I have never seen one like that before.

 

I vaguely remember there was a white USMC summer jacket that used for s very short time in the late 30's but not sure if they were worn through the 40's. But it could have been a Khaki jacket just as well. I will have to check my books.

 

Regardless of it's origins and intent, it's a nice patch I wouldn't mind coming across!

 

Leonardo

 

Well as you know the Ships detachment being a exclusively WWII patch would have been worn during that time, not sure if the Marines wore a White uniform, there was the Dress White officers uniforms you know the one like the Navy officers, but were they permited to wear shoulder patches on that dress White uniform ? the thought maybe this would have been worn by a Sailor, a Pharmasist Mate on his Whites ? but would a Corpsman who was a member of the ships company be directly or permanently assigned to a Marine ship detachment ?

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Well as you know the Ships detachment being a exclusively WWII patch would have been worn during that time, not sure if the Marines wore a White uniform, there was the Dress White officers uniforms you know the one like the Navy officers, but were they permited to wear shoulder patches on that dress White uniform ? the thought maybe this would have been worn by a Sailor, a Pharmasist Mate on his Whites ? but would a Corpsman who was a member of the ships company be directly or permanently assigned to a Marine ship detachment ?

 

Although I didn't write it, these same thoughts went through my head with the same conclusion! Something is amiss of trying to fit this patch into regulations but Soldiers/Sailors are known to do things out of regulation from time to time. :thumbsup:

 

Leonardo

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VirtualMariner

I have no clue as to what's up with the white patch, but there are considerable differences in the seahorse on the white one compared to the red one. I don't know how wide the variation was between the red ones, but the white one is different enough that it bears noting.

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It also begs the question of, on what uniform would an all White Marine Corps shoulder patch be worn on ?

 

 

Blues or Greens....The Marines wore a white felt diamond(right shoulder) to denote discharge/seperation from service.

 

Possible one may have been made useing the white diamond as a base??or possible sample that wasnt approved??

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vintageproductions
I have no clue as to what's up with the white patch, but there are considerable differences in the seahorse on the white one compared to the red one. I don't know how wide the variation was between the red ones, but the white one is different enough that it bears noting.

 

In Marine Corps patches, Ship's Detachments probably have the most variations.

There are numerous styles of the seahorses, not just one.

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Blues or Greens....The Marines wore a white felt diamond(right shoulder) to denote discharge/seperation from service.

 

Possible one may have been made useing the white diamond as a base??or possible sample that wasnt approved??

 

Those two are possible.

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I would say that it is possible that the patch was once red and all of the dye has been washed out of the felt? I've seen a couple other patches (not military though) where once they were soaked in a cleaning solution that they lost a lot of their color. It is possible that the dye wasn't fixed into the felt fabric.

 

Just a thought.

Allan

 

I agree with Allan that this is simply a faded red patch. I have a pristine example of this variant, in red and will post it if I can dig it out of storage. This variant is also one of four types pictured in the color insert on Marine patches featured in the July-September 1994 issue of the ASMIC Trading Post.

 

Bob Capistrano

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Although I didn't write it, these same thoughts went through my head with the same conclusion! Something is amiss of trying to fit this patch into regulations but Soldiers/Sailors are known to do things out of regulation from time to time. :thumbsup:

 

Leonardo

 

Well there are some leeway in certain things, but here it would seem the wearing of an all White Marine Corps shoulder patch would seem way off base, and would have been noticed straight off with the man giving a good chewing out. Perhaps if it had an all blue Background one might be able to say that it was a Manufacture error, or in this case as it is a non standard wool type, one that may have been a privatly made variation on blue wool, again this would be begging the Regs, but the more I think about it the more I'm thinking that this may be like Allan, and now Pac bob suggest, that it was original a Red Wool one that has had the dye drained away, how this could have happened ? my only guess that it may have been sewn on a Khaki Cotton Twill shirt, these shirts were normaly washed in the normal way, in hot soapy water, unlike the tropical worseted wool uniforms that had to be dry cleaned, or at the very least washed in cold/cooler water.

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I've seen these red felt patches faded to a very light pink because they weren't very colorfast. I had even heard stories of them bleeding out and ruining a uniform when caught in the rain, so it wouldn't seem far-fetched for a well laundered one to go white.

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vintageproductions

Okay, not trying to be funny here, but if the red would have run out of this patch wouldn't the border have "bled" also? The border is still bright red.

I agree with Bill and Steve, it is just a killer variant.

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Okay, not trying to be funny here, but if the red would have run out of this patch wouldn't the border have "bled" also? The border is still bright red.

I agree with Bill and Steve, it is just a killer variant.

 

 

I agree Bob.I would think bleeding of the dye would be evident in the cotton threaded-cheese cloth backing and looking at the moth nip if the item were just faded there should be evidence of or a faint red in the area of the wool where the moth had eaten through :think:

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Okay, not trying to be funny here, but if the red would have run out of this patch wouldn't the border have "bled" also? The border is still bright red.

I agree with Bill and Steve, it is just a killer variant.

 

Perhaps the red border and other colors of the center design are either Color fast mercerized cotton or maybe rayon ?

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I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, just trying out some possibilities. A vet from the 2nd division told me about the red felt patches bleeding, he said they were mostly all exchanged and discarded for the non-felt versions.

I usually shy away from the faded felt patches but some of the the pinkish ones I do have show no color transfer to the mesh back or color loss from the rayon threads.I'd be more inclined to believe it was intended to be white if it weren't obviously shrunk from washing. :think: Seagoing marine with an attached navy corpsman, for use on his whites? Were corpsmen attached to seagoing marine groups? Or wounded marines temporarily attached to a ship before discharge (combined with the white diamond)? This was obviously sewed onto something and washed, maybe it was just a manufacturer error or variant sewed onto a patch blanket.

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vintageproductions

Bob-It is similar but not the same patch. The eye details are different.

The top one was efinately made on a white background. For what reason, who know's, but the guys who ordered it.

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Bob-It is similar but not the same patch. The eye details are different.

The top one was efinately made on a white background. For what reason, who know's, but the guys who ordered it.

 

 

IMHO, it looks the same manufacture to me. There are too many common details. Now whether or not the color bled, I couldn't tell you. Considering the amount of washing the white patch went through, it is a possibility for sure.

 

-Ski

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vintageproductions

Are we all looking at the same patch?

The one Patch Johnson posted is the white backed, and the one Bob Capistrano posted with the red background. The eyeball is in a different location, the spine has a different number of ridges, plus the detail lines down the center of the body are different. The only thing that looks the same is it is machine embroidered on felt.

The one cool thing about collecting Marine Corps patches, is every manufacturer made a slightly different variation.

I am not trying to be a jerk here, but if anyone has any of these "faded" patches, that are identical to the one in the first posting, I will happily buy everyone of them I can.

I have been collecting and dealing for thirty plus years. When I was collecting my favorite area was Marine Corps patches. I have bought and sold literally 1000's of USMC patches, and I have seen some of the greatest collections in the world. Not once have I seen one of these on a white background.

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I dunno call me crazy, but that very much looks like the same style and manufacturer to me except for the color of the felt it's on and the wear/shrinkage. It may not have been embroidered on the same color felt, but I'd be pretty confident saying it was the same maker.

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Are we all looking at the same patch?

The one Patch Johnson posted is the white backed, and the one Bob Capistrano posted with the red background. The eyeball is in a different location, the spine has a different number of ridges, plus the detail lines down the center of the body are different. The only thing that looks the same is it is machine embroidered on felt.

The one cool thing about collecting Marine Corps patches, is every manufacturer made a slightly different variation.

I am not trying to be a jerk here, but if anyone has any of these "faded" patches, that are identical to the one in the first posting, I will happily buy everyone of them I can.

I have been collecting and dealing for thirty plus years. When I was collecting my favorite area was Marine Corps patches. I have bought and sold literally 1000's of USMC patches, and I have seen some of the greatest collections in the world. Not once have I seen one of these on a white background.

To add to Bobs post I see there is a differance in the details of the nose as it shows some red backround showing through and the details on PacBobs red patch has more pointed tips on the flukes of the anchors than the white wool one also

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To add to Bobs post I see there is a differance in the details of the nose as it shows some red backround showing through and the details on PacBobs red patch has more pointed tips on the flukes of the anchors than the white wool one also

 

There was a lot less consistency from machine to machine or operator to operator on older patches from this time frame than today. I have seen some pretty big differences in stitching and detail work come from the same dated box of one type of patch, separate that by a few months or years and you'd see the same differences pointed out or maybe even an oddball colored backing material being used. If they sold some Marine Corps patches to Navy Corpsmen, why not make a batch they would think a corpsman would want to use with colors that would go better with their white uniform. Who know?

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