Beau-Brummel Posted February 16, 2012 Share #26 Posted February 16, 2012 Guy , When one sees an original piece one must use the force to guide you. And this is one of those pieces . Sadly I have yet to attain Jedi master status. Having looked at the auction pictures i will agree that the tailoring Is A typical of garments modified In SEA, however there Is NO real way of knowing when; for example the work could have been carried out In Thailand post war. Similarly there Is NO way to prove who used It. If this piece Is real then the piece owned by a French member that was slated here could equally be real. Don't get me wrong, I like the jacket very much and I have the greatest respect for Hulka who turns up some magnificent pieces; all I'm saying Is It's a bit of a stretch to call this or any other modified garment a SOG jacket without documentary or photographic evidence. As you and I both know Owen, a sparay painted set with all the modifications and photographic Veteran provenance will command similar money to some SS camo pieces. I am simply trying to councel people against spending large amounts of money on Items which are neither one thing or the other and to get some perspective, that's all. Yours, Guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beogam Posted February 16, 2012 Share #27 Posted February 16, 2012 :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriegsmodell Posted February 16, 2012 Share #28 Posted February 16, 2012 Sadly I have yet to attain Jedi master status. Having looked at the auction pictures i will agree that the tailoring Is A typical of garments modified In SEA, however there Is NO real way of knowing when; for example the work could have been carried out In Thailand post war. Similarly there Is NO way to prove who used It. If this piece Is real then the piece owned by a French member that was slated here could equally be real. Don't get me wrong, I like the jacket very much and I have the greatest respect for Hulka who turns up some magnificent pieces; all I'm saying Is It's a bit of a stretch to call this or any other modified garment a SOG jacket without documentary or photographic evidence. As you and I both know Owen, a sparay painted set with all the modifications and photographic Veteran provenance will command similar money to some SS camo pieces. I am simply trying to councel people against spending large amounts of money on Items which are neither one thing or the other and to get some perspective, that's all. Yours, Guy. +1 Very well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X_redcatcher Posted February 16, 2012 Share #29 Posted February 16, 2012 Dont be surprirsed when Ebay pulls your set off Ebay, the words "This is also for sale in other places so i keep the right to end auction anyday i want" may not sit with them at all, they have been a bit pissy in the last few months with that kind of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kammo-man Posted February 16, 2012 Share #30 Posted February 16, 2012 Guy , Agree with you ..........1000% . But real is real , and just because it came from a flea market should not taint a wonderful piece. Not every jacket can be hand delivered from a vet, but its safe to say due to established pictures its a SOG jacket.........that is if the 314th mess tin repair unit SOP was to use a across the fence jacket on parade......which may of happened. Which French jacket do you talk of ? owen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beau-Brummel Posted February 17, 2012 Share #31 Posted February 17, 2012 Guy ,Agree with you ..........1000% . But real is real , and just because it came from a flea market should not taint a wonderful piece. Not every jacket can be hand delivered from a vet, but its safe to say due to established pictures its a SOG jacket.........that is if the 314th mess tin repair unit SOP was to use a across the fence jacket on parade......which may of happened. Which French jacket do you talk of ? owen No It Isn't safe to assume that at all. There are pictures of these jackets being worn by Meyer, Hayes, Bargewell etc, etc but that doesn't mean this piece went over the fence or any where near It for that matter. Despite facesious remarks about mess tin repair units. This jacket IS the same style they used but without provenance It's just a nice modified, probably Special Forces jacket. To couch It In terms you might understand, I once had a 2 pocket camouflage jacket In Italian camo; It was found In a farm In Normandy in the 60's and was quite probably left behind by a member of LAH. Could I sell It as such? NO, I had to sell It as a jacket of the style worn by the LAH but In reality could have been worn by the denizen of the ghoulash cannon. All that glitters is not gold my friend; unless someone recognises that laundry mark this will always be an unattributed piece no matter how much some people wish otherwise. JMHO, Guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattD Posted February 17, 2012 Share #32 Posted February 17, 2012 I like the jacket, Sgt Hulka always has good stuff. With that said, I have to agree with Guy-no paperwork/provenance, just another modified Jungle jacket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kammo-man Posted February 17, 2012 Share #33 Posted February 17, 2012 Guy , I dont understand the terms you are tying to point out to me . owen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintageproductions Posted February 17, 2012 Share #34 Posted February 17, 2012 Okay, I have been reading / watching this thread since it started. Honestly, I am more confused by what everyone is saying now, then when it started. Is this piece a real over the fence jacket? Who knows, could be. I will say it matches up with all the real ones I have seen and handled. How many are commenting on this thread that have never handled a real over the fence piece? Some of the comments about it only being real if it had documentation, are a bit far fetched. It has only been whitin the last ten or twelve years that the whole "named" thing has gone nuts in Vietnam collecting. In the 80's and 90's, you bought the piece and not the history. I know that is hard for some collectors here to wrap their heads around, but that is how it was. It didn't matter if a jungle jacket was missing a name tag, you were buying the item. I personally have handled a lot of original SOG items, starting back in the early 80's, that never had a name attached to them. Did that dimish the historical importance? No, it was still a SOG piece. If you only want named pieces, good luck, and I hope your bank account is strong enough to support this idea. On a different note, I am going to use Guy here, but it is not directed at Guy. Guy you have posted incredible Vietnam tiger stripe headgear in the past. Do you have a name with all these pieces? If you don't does that make them not original? Again, I am not slagging Guy's headgear, I am just trying to prove a point. Just because a piece is not named, it doesn't mean the item is not real. Again, just using Guy as an example. This jacket I am sure came out of a pile of "rag" at one of the local flea markets. Dave (Sgt Hulka) is a hard worker and is out everyday hunting great items down. I am not going to be one of the "haters" here, who want to label it as bad instantly, I will say good for him and that all his hard work has paid off from beating the bush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River Patrol Posted February 17, 2012 Share #35 Posted February 17, 2012 It's a nice modified jacket......without a name. But that wouldn't matter to me. While it is nice to have a name....it's not critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFT3 Posted February 17, 2012 Share #36 Posted February 17, 2012 The only difference between a named cross border jacket and a jacket like the one shown here would be the price. A known named item to a member of a SOG recon team is tremendously more expensive than one that is not. I think the people concerned with this jacket are worried that it might have been modified by someone after the Vietnam war. And I think their concern is justified. As Bob mentioned, 30 years ago no one knew what a cross border jacket was nor did they care. If you found something like this the biggest problem was trying to figure out what it was used for, not if it was authentic! Not so much today; more people know what these items are and are trying to fake them. It is hard for a lot of new collectors of Vietnam items to believe, but most of your fellow militaria collectors in the 1970-80's thought you were weird for collecting the Vietnam period. You could find great badge-out jungle jackets in Thrift stores for a few bucks. There was no reason to worry about authenticity at that time because the items were so inexpensive. That is the reason there were few doubts about Vietnam items in those days, but with the rise in prices today, more collectors are concerned about provenance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kammo-man Posted February 18, 2012 Share #37 Posted February 18, 2012 Bottom line is ..... Pukka piece ........ I hope Hulka gets a good price ........he deserves it . And the selling price shall be the factor in gauging if its real or not. owen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted February 18, 2012 Share #38 Posted February 18, 2012 "Some of the comments about it only being real if it had documentation, are a bit far fetched. It has only been whitin the last ten or twelve years that the whole "named" thing has gone nuts in Vietnam collecting. In the 80's and 90's, you bought the piece and not the history. I know that is hard for some collectors here to wrap their heads around, but that is how it was. It didn't matter if a jungle jacket was missing a name tag, you were buying the item. I personally have handled a lot of original SOG items, starting back in the early 80's, that never had a name attached to them. Did that dimish the historical importance? No, it was still a SOG piece. If you only want named pieces, good luck, and I hope your bank account is strong enough to support this idea." I couldn't agree more with Bob about this shirt/topic. When I saw it I knew right away what it was, I didn't need "a name" or some kinda "provenance". While fakes abound EVERYWHERE, like others have said, you know real when you see it. The fact that guys think this thing is possibly bogus without that precious "name" and/or "story" is just getting ludicrous. You either know what you are looking at or you don't. I promise you it'll go for stupid money, the rich guy who gets it will be very happy to have it AND will gladly brag about getting it. "The only difference between a named cross border jacket and a jacket like the one shown here would be the price. A known named item to a member of a SOG recon team is tremendously more expensive than one that is not." So, based on this comment, how much "tremendously more" is a name worth? Hundreds? Thousands? Is it really THAT important? To some "elitist" collectors I'm sure it probably is. But like Bob said, how many items in alot of collections actually have a name to it? And again, like Bob said, does it make the item less cool without a name or provenance? I seriously doubt it. I get some guys wanting named or storied items, it's their thing, God bless them and their bank accounts. I just find it really lame to judging this shirt as not to be what it appears to be because there is no story or name to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beau-Brummel Posted February 18, 2012 Share #39 Posted February 18, 2012 :crying: I'm not really sure I understand where all the negativity is coming from. The only 'hate' I'm feeling Is coming from very specific circles, up until recently this was a clean debate. I have never once said anything bad about Hulka or his Items; I actually say that he is a good guy and that he finds some amazing pieces. Do I belive the jacket In question Is post war, no, on the balance of probability I think not. Do I think It was used by SOG? yes very possibly, but I would never make the cast iron statements that owen has made without provenance as there Is no way of knowing. Would I like to own the piece? Yes, If It came In at the right price I would as it is a specific set of modifications that I do not have In my collection of cross border clothing. As for my hat collection, well that's a bit like comparing apples and oranges and In your rush to support your friend you have allowed your logic to become flawed. As long as It's original a hat Is a hat Is a hat, and to a greater or lesser extent mass produced. Anyone could own a tiger hat, from the lowliest of loggies up to the mightiest of warriors. A hat does not pretend to be something It is not. With very few exceptions a hat does not shout "I'm SOG" or "I'm Special Forces" although It may hint at such. Garments such as this jacket on the other hand shout it from the rooftops and that Is why peole need to take care. Anyone who has witnessed the tragic decline of the TR market over the last 3 decades will understand this. It Is very easy to want to believe and to allow ones self to be swept along on a wave of euphoria, convinced that one has had the find of a lifertime. There are plenty of SOG collectors out there who were taken In by a name or a reputatiuon and are now left with piles of worthless rags. To the accusdation that I am an elitist collector because i try only to collect provenanced SOG Items, well ok, maybe I am. We all have different criteria for our collecting and as you are so fond of saying spike " as long as you are happy with It that's all that matters" Anyway, I'm sorry If my asking questions In a effort to make peole think Is uncomfortable to some but the day I stop trying to learn Is the day I ask Jason or Ed to fly over and clean me out. I'm sure you'll be pleased to hear that I'm done here and won't be returning to this forum, Guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USMCRECON Posted February 18, 2012 Share #40 Posted February 18, 2012 The only difference between a named cross border jacket and a jacket like the one shown here would be the price. A known named item to a member of a SOG recon team is tremendously more expensive than one that is not. I think the people concerned with this jacket are worried that it might have been modified by someone after the Vietnam war. And I think their concern is justified. As Bob mentioned, 30 years ago no one knew what a cross border jacket was nor did they care. If you found something like this the biggest problem was trying to figure out what it was used for, not if it was authentic! Not so much today; more people know what these items are and are trying to fake them.It is hard for a lot of new collectors of Vietnam items to believe, but most of your fellow militaria collectors in the 1970-80's thought you were weird for collecting the Vietnam period. You could find great badge-out jungle jackets in Thrift stores for a few bucks. There was no reason to worry about authenticity at that time because the items were so inexpensive. That is the reason there were few doubts about Vietnam items in those days, but with the rise in prices today, more collectors are concerned about provenance. To my layman's eye (and one who wore items like this), the tailoring work looks period to me. I seem to remember that only one of my bush utility shirts actually had my name on it. The others had no markinga at all. The style of workmanship looks much like the tailoring we had done by the Viet tailor on our combat base. I couldn't say by looking at it that it was actually used by SOG or that it was used in cross-border ops. SOG was not the only ones to do mods to their uniform and equipment items. The inside labels may or may not have been deliberately removed....it's hard to tell as ough Vietnamese laundering was hard on uniform items, particularly labels, and they often came loose, came completely off, or got washed out. However, it definitely looks like an in-country modification to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
combat-helmets Posted February 18, 2012 Share #41 Posted February 18, 2012 Forgive my ignorance, but this is a 1st pattern OG-107 field modified slant pocket ripstop, correct?? I don't get all the hoopla? Why is it so high because it's supposed to be SOG related? That's alot of money it seems for a field modified jacket unless I got it direct from the vet, I could not see laying out that kind of cash, even if it came from the vet,but I confess this is not my area of collecting or expertise, so I'm following this thread to learn a couple things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sjef Posted February 18, 2012 Share #42 Posted February 18, 2012 I don't know anything about the shirt that is the subject of this topic, but if I understand Guy's replies correctly all he is saying is that however genuine SOG the shirt may be, there is no way of proving it. This apparently is not that important to some people (who might trust their gut feeling), however it is important to other (maybe more cautious) people. Guy is trying to make clear that the single fact that hard proof about the status of the shirt is lacking already makes that it potentially fetches less money when sold on in the future. I can't disagree with that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJohn#3RD Posted February 18, 2012 Share #43 Posted February 18, 2012 I will state right up front I do not collect SF/SOG Vietnam Items except those given to me from friends who served there or what I have stumbled across at yard and garage sales. This is because of the controversy that abounds with such items. The adding of additional pockets to jungle fatigues and later DCU (chocolate chip and 3 tone sand) was to compensate from pockets covered up by field gear such as the LBE and later desert harnesses, AK Vest etc. It was a matter of field practicality, not to be different or sexy. The modifications were normally made by the individual soldier or team taking jackets or trouser to local sewing shop and having them done. One of the practicalities of this was the ability of being able to strip a body of classified material such as code books if in a very bad situation and a comrades body had to be cached or worse yet be left behind. The jacket that was posted on eBay that started on this string looks like a fantasy piece, a short run idea that did not last but 60 seconds after a true recon man saw it or at best a garret trooper item. If someone on this forum owns this or thinking about bidding on it PM me and we can discuss it at length; I mean no offense, just what I know from my 30 years of service in Ranger, LRRP, RECON and SF units, all post Vietnam, but trained and brought up by veterans who served in combat in SOG, RANGER and/or LRRP assignments. In summary this jacket, without provenance, would more than likely have been worn by a staff person than someone in the woods. Regards, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFT3 Posted February 18, 2012 Share #44 Posted February 18, 2012 "Some of the comments about it only being real if it had documentation, are a bit far fetched. It has only been whitin the last ten or twelve years that the whole "named" thing has gone nuts in Vietnam collecting. In the 80's and 90's, you bought the piece and not the history. I know that is hard for some collectors here to wrap their heads around, but that is how it was. It didn't matter if a jungle jacket was missing a name tag, you were buying the item. I personally have handled a lot of original SOG items, starting back in the early 80's, that never had a name attached to them. Did that dimish the historical importance? No, it was still a SOG piece. If you only want named pieces, good luck, and I hope your bank account is strong enough to support this idea." I couldn't agree more with Bob about this shirt/topic. When I saw it I knew right away what it was, I didn't need "a name" or some kinda "provenance". While fakes abound EVERYWHERE, like others have said, you know real when you see it. The fact that guys think this thing is possibly bogus without that precious "name" and/or "story" is just getting ludicrous. You either know what you are looking at or you don't. I promise you it'll go for stupid money, the rich guy who gets it will be very happy to have it AND will gladly brag about getting it. "The only difference between a named cross border jacket and a jacket like the one shown here would be the price. A known named item to a member of a SOG recon team is tremendously more expensive than one that is not." So, based on this comment, how much "tremendously more" is a name worth? Hundreds? Thousands? Is it really THAT important? To some "elitist" collectors I'm sure it probably is. But like Bob said, how many items in alot of collections actually have a name to it? And again, like Bob said, does it make the item less cool without a name or provenance? I seriously doubt it. I get some guys wanting named or storied items, it's their thing, God bless them and their bank accounts. I just find it really lame to judging this shirt as not to be what it appears to be because there is no story or name to it. Spike, the difference is thousands. And to us elitist collectors it is the difference of owning an artifact from an historical period as opposed to having a cool jacket we can wear and hope is authentic. There is no "historical importance" to an item used by members of SOG without provenance. History is not the study of artifacts. If an artifact can shed more insight into human events and interactions, then it may be historically important, but only if it has provenance. Otherwise it can never been shown that the artifact was indeed present to effect any human activity. One must separate the study of history from the collection of artifacts before they can determine what is "historically important". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintageproductions Posted February 18, 2012 Share #45 Posted February 18, 2012 Wow, a bunch of people have gotten their panties in a bunch.... I made a simple comment, whether someone agrees with me or not, doesn't bother me, but it looks like it sure bothers others. I was not coming to "my friends" rescue when I posted what I did. I was responding to all the critics who don't have a problem attacking a dealer when they don't have any proof to post that the item is not real. That is a major problem with internet forums, is that you can type whatever you want, attack any dealer without basis, and you can skip away without any backlash, while the dealer gets labeled as having offered questionable items on the internet. A lot of you may not see this, but the new collector that reads this thread, will now start questioning anything SGT HULKA puts up. Also, I don't know where this is coming from but this ridiculous "US vs THEM" attitude has got to go. This notion that has popped up in the last couple of years that it is the European Vietnam collectors against the California collectors, is a fantasy made up in the European collectors heads. I am directing this at Guy. If you think I came in here to defend Owen, boy are you sorely mistaken. He is a big boy and can protect himself when he makes comments. I am sick and tired of "certain collectors" saying that I am always protecting him on this forum, or that we work together on deals. This is all hearsay and fantasy that small minded people like to pass between each other. There are many times he and I disagree and fight about things also. Trust me, I have no problem telling him his is wrong. Same thing with Spike, in fact he and I haven't spoken to each other since September. Like I said in the original post, that I was not slagging Guy's headgear, I think his pieces are amazing. Maybe he is right we are comparing apples to oranges, but I was using it as a comparison that just because a piece isn't identified, does that make it any less rare or valuable? No, it doesn't the pieces stand on thier own merits. Just like Hulka's jungle jacket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattS Posted February 18, 2012 Share #46 Posted February 18, 2012 I have been reading this thread and watching people argue over a jacket. I would say that if you think this is a Vietnam-modified jungle jacket that was worn by a member of SOG, then feel free to bid accordingly. If you have your doubts, don't bid. It's still a free country. I am concerned that this modified jacket features authentic "paintball stains" and while it could be a jacket modified in the late 1960s in SEA, it just isn't worth over $800 to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintageproductions Posted February 18, 2012 Share #47 Posted February 18, 2012 Forgive my ignorance, but this is a 1st pattern OG-107 field modified slant pocket ripstop, correct??I don't get all the hoopla? Why is it so high because it's supposed to be SOG related? That's alot of money it seems for a field modified jacket unless I got it direct from the vet, I could not see laying out that kind of cash, even if it came from the vet,but I confess this is not my area of collecting or expertise, so I'm following this thread to learn a couple things... During Vietnam it wasn't as common as it is today to have modified uniforms. You might see epaulettes added or belt loops added, but not the interior / hidden pockets with zippers on them. Usually this type , like the one shown in the auction, were worn by elite forces. Today (meaning the last ten years or so), it has become common for soldiers to modify their uniforms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy vs Spy Posted February 18, 2012 Share #48 Posted February 18, 2012 I will state right up front I do not collect SF/SOG Vietnam Items except those given to me from friends who served there or what I have stumbled across at yard and garage sales. This is because of the controversy that abounds with such items. The adding of additional pockets to jungle fatigues and later DCU (chocolate chip and 3 tone sand) was to compensate from pockets covered up by field gear such as the LBE and later desert harnesses, AK Vest etc. It was a matter of field practicality, not to be different or sexy. The modifications were normally made by the individual soldier or team taking jackets or trouser to local sewing shop and having them done. One of the practicalities of this was the ability of being able to strip a body of classified material such as code books if in a very bad situation and a comrades body had to be cached or worse yet be left behind. The jacket that was posted on eBay that started on this string looks like a fantasy piece, a short run idea that did not last but 60 seconds after a true recon man saw it or at best a garret trooper item. If someone on this forum owns this or thinking about bidding on it PM me and we can discuss it at length; I mean no offense, just what I know from my 30 years of service in Ranger, LRRP, RECON and SF units, all post Vietnam, but trained and brought up by veterans who served in combat in SOG, RANGER and/or LRRP assignments. In summary this jacket, without provenance, would more than likely have been worn by a staff person than someone in the woods.Regards, John -In summary this jacket, without provenance, would more than likely have been worn by a staff person than someone in the woods. John, there are books showing Jungle jackets with modifications just like this one beeing worn in the field (Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam). Regards//Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kammo-man Posted February 19, 2012 Share #49 Posted February 19, 2012 Did a long standing member just bow out of the forum ? Good grief ....... owen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei Posted February 19, 2012 Share #50 Posted February 19, 2012 It's a nice modified jacket......without a name. But that wouldn't matter to me. While it is nice to have a name....it's not critical. Well said ! :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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