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Polish WWI volunteer uniform set IDENTIFIED!


grimble-nibitz
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grimble-nibitz

Had to share this one too, I have never seen or owned one of these before, came with family info on the owner, Peter Noga. He turned out to be Piotr Noga, from Bridesburg, Philadephia PA. His enslitment papers were on file in Chicago, showing him enlisting at the end of WWI for the Polish Civil War, and from all the material I can find, which is scant, he is a high NCO or more likely an aspirant or Warrant Officer in the 2nd Polish Engineers...a very unusual unit. He did return to PA, and lived out his life there. Does anyone know anything about this unit? Pants are marked with French issue marks, the tunic and hat are made in France but not issue.

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Looks like Polonized French uniform Pattern 1915. It is an uniform of Gen. Haller's Army aka Haller's Blue Army. This story has many American threads so I recommend it to research more. The Haller's Army had only one Engineers Battalion but I am unable to find its number.

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That's a mind-blowingly rare uniform, particularly having been worn by an American!!!

 

Have you checked the PA state archives to see if they have a veteran's record from him? It would be fascinating to see what he was involved in. I don't think I have any books on the Civil War in Poland, but I'll look in my library and see (and if they're in English!)

 

This uniform, for certain, needs a lot more research. Have you been able to find any family members? If I had this uniform, I'd give my first born (okay, only when she's back talking to my wife...) :lol: for a photo of him, especially in uniform!

 

Dave

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I study this unit and have a pretty decent working knowledge of it. What do you want to know in particular? For starters, the Polish Army in France was recruited from all over the world. Some units were made up from survivors of the French Foreign Legion in France as well as Poles who were serving in the Russian Army that was serving in France. A second group was made up of Austro-Hungarian POW's held in Italy. A third group was formed from Poles in the former Russian Army who were left after the Czar was overthrown. Some soldiers from the Polish Legion fight with the Austro-Hungarian army, including the eventual leader, Joseph Haller, were able to escape from the Germans and make there way to France and join. And the last group came from American, Canadian and South American volunteers of Polish heritage.

 

Before the US got involved in the war the Polish Army in France set up recruiting offices in all the major cities. A select group was chosen to attend an officers training school in Pennsylvania or New York and were to form the cadre of the unit. The problem started when the US entered the war. The American volunteers were a tricky lot because they were eligible for the draft so the volunteers had to have been found un-draftable or they had to join on the sly. Many were also considered enemy aliens because though Poles they were born in Austo-Hungary or German territory. The US tried to turn a blind eye to the recruitment of a foreign army on US shores, but the Czechs did it as well as the Brits.

 

The Canadians took on the task of training the men formally and they moved to Niagra. Political problems kept the men there almost until the end of the war but many did eventually make it to France where they took part in the fighting in the Champagne area. After the armistance the army, now pretty big with the joining of all 4 groups of volunteers (I just moved and none of my books are here so I can't give a specific number). By the beginning of 1919 the Polish Army in France not only included infantry outfitted by the French, but an aviation squadron, engineers, medical corps and tank units. They were a fully supplied fighting unit. With Poland a country now, the army was sent to Poland but because it was commanded by General Haller, the commander of the Polish Army General Pilsudski did not trust their political motives - Pilsudski and Haller were old rivals dating back to their Polish Legion days in 1914. As a result the army, now called ""the Blue Army" because of its French uniforms, was scattered all over the country to fight against Bolshevics, Ukrainians, Lithaunians, Germans, bandit, etc. It was too bad because they were the most complete unit the Poles had at that time.

 

The scattered Blue Army units fought some really horrific battles along the borders of the new country, lots of hand-to-hand combat from the narratives I've read. Due to more political wrangling it was decided to ship out the American and Canadians and who ever else wanted to go back to where they came from starting in 1920. Some stayed behind to live in the new Poland, but most of the Americans went back the the states. Poland still recognizes the contribution made by the volunteers from America and Blue Army units are represented on Polish Independence Day every year.

 

Uniforms from this period are of course rare, but they do pop up. I believe around 20,000 Americans served in the Polish Army in France (again, I don't have my books). The thing is, most were made post-war in the states for reunions or parades. If yours is a real French issued uniform then you really got something there. And being an engineer unit makes it even rarer because of the fewer men in the unit. I don't know off hand what the number of the enginner unit was, but when my books arrive in November I can find out for sure.

 

Can you take some more close ups of everything? I am an artist and illustrate uniforms and the Polish Army In France is something I've been working on for years, I love seeing the real thing!

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I agree that the uniform is in unique condition -- even in Poland it would be hard to find Haller's Army uniform in better condition or maybe it would be impossible. I hope it is not reunion clone uniform if it has French stamps.

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grimble-nibitz

The pants are dated 1916 and have French army marks, and red or maroon piping down the legs, and the coat and hat are of similar vintage. I appreciate all that info, and your work. This is a heavy french wool tunic and hat, definately not a reunion piece, a real "field use" piece. And definately NOT made in the US, its just like French combat stuff and is in amazing condition, I was shocked to see no holes, little age staining, and bright color. Its also made for a man of about 5 feet 11 inches and is perhaps a size 40...unusually large for the time. This man worked in a paint factory in Phillie, and was born in Poland, moved to the US at age 2 and then volunteered for the Polish Service at the end of 1918, in December, from Philadelphia. He returned to America and made his life here, and I am the lucky beneficiary of his adventure in Poland! Thanks everyone!

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grimble-nibitz

Cap front with unusual blue wool chinstrap, small gray metal Polish eagle prongback side buttons, strap is piped in red like the rest of the uniform. post-6068-1320335703.jpg

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Ill do some research over the weekend as my great grandfather commanded a infantry batalion during the Polish-Soviet War and was at the Battle of the Vistula, I have some books on the War.

 

However the eagle on the cap is a 1940's Exile type, can you check the back of it and see if there is a makers mark. Ill try to find some Haller type eagles so you can see the diffrence. But the uniform looks good, theres a few of them around in Polish museums and in private collections in the US.

 

Also, Poland never had a civil war ;-) it was the Russians that had it. However you had Polish legions being formed with the Austrians, Russians and French and in 1917 the Polnische Wehrmacht.

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grimble-nibitz

This man did not die until the 1980's, so its very possible that the badge may be from his veteran days, its held on with a split shank that folds over inside and has a washer inside also, just a single hole in the middle. If this is not the first insignia, which is possible as Mr. Noga is not here to tell me for sure, the first one had either a screw shank or a single prong set.

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grimble-nibitz

And I can agree that the war might better be called an action clearing the occupiers of Poland, who had no business there. Not much sympathy out there for the old reds, these days.

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BigDogMilitaria

I recently found a box of medals and papers from a gent that served in Hallers Army. There were about 15 medals in all, found in an old house in Detroit. I have since moved them, but i found some very helpful and big time collectors of this stuff over at War relics. One of the mods over there was especially helpful. PM me if you want his contact details.

 

Nice find!

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A link to the thread I posted over there. (Mods, if this is not ok, i apologize)

 

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/polish-armed...grouping-88171/

 

Looks like you found some nice stuff! For the sake of this forum and historical record, would you be willing to post some of those photos over here?

 

Thanks

 

Dave

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BigDogMilitaria
Looks like you found some nice stuff! For the sake of this forum and historical record, would you be willing to post some of those photos over here?

 

Thanks

 

Dave

 

Sure, no problem. Would you like me to start a seperate thread? I dont want to hijack this one. It was a sweet find to say the least. I went to the sale because I saw a Mothers flag in some photo's and i had wanted one for a while. The guy having the sale took my number for future reference. Called me the next morning and told me he found a box of medals in the back of a drawer and didnt know what they were. I was really hoping they were some US medals. Grabbed a bunch of books and went back down there. Neither of us had any idea what they were but i bought them for $20 anyways. Researched them over the course of a month or so, talked to some really knowledgeble people. I normally dont sell what i find, but these were kind of out my realm. My goal was to keep the group together if i sold them, which i was able to do. I was able to use the spoils to purchase some very choice pieces that had been picked up in my local area over the last year. Worked out for everyone!

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However the eagle on the cap is a 1940's Exile type, can you check the back of it and see if there is a makers mark.

If so, that Polish Eagle could be re-issued especially for the New York World's Fair 1939-1940. The Polish authorities and the US-based Polish Embassy did their best before NYWF to integrate one more time entire community of the Polish Americans who were veterans of Polish-Soviet War. There was a lot of events then during NYWF with participation of the veterans mentioned and long months they wore their Haller's or Polish uniforms they had during the War of 1920.

 

Also, Poland never had a civil war ;-)

:) I did not want to write about it earlier because it is mainly US-dedicated forum, but you are right of course. Poland was invaded by the Soviets then therefore it would be hard to tell that it was a "civil war". It was classic defensive war against the Soviets and the Americans have their beautiful chapter of history in that story as well.

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No maker on back of the eagle, incidently, looks just like rough silver material.

For your information, during interwar period there were two Patterns of the Polish Military Eagle. Pattern 1919 was the Eagle as posted below; Pattern 1933 can be seen here.

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Croix de Guerre

Wow! I am so happy and blown away to see this uniform posted! As fate would have it I have become very interested in both Polish and Czech American volunteer material over the past few months and this has done a great deal to wet my appetite even further! Great, now I have to try and collect even more stuff I can't afford!

 

What a great uniform and a great story! As a novice in this area I am going to sit back an try and learn from you all. :lol: Thanks again! :thumbsup:

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No maker on back of the eagle, incidently, looks just like rough silver material.

There is nothing bad in the fact that the Polish Eagle Pattern 1919 cap device is unstamped. Big part of them, if not vast majority, was unstamped. Here you do have the original 1919 Pattern unstamped.

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grimble-nibitz

That screw post is in exactly the same spot as the hole in the hat behind the prongback badge, and is likely what went on there. Thanks for all the interest. This think approaches the place where so many people love it, someone is going to try to talk me out of it, and then the sad choices come up...bills or collection...or the poor house dressed in horizon blue. Damn.

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