WAR OF 1812 PAY ROSTER

[cpatrick]

Here is another item from my early American militaria collection. This is an original War of 1812 Pay Roster for a company of New York Militia, dated 1813. (Yes, the war lasted for two years) This was originally in the late William Guthman Collection, a very well known, advanced scholar and collector of early American militaria. I was fortunate enough to obtain a few choice items from his collection after his passing. It's interesting to see that at least five men in this company alone were listed as "Deserted" - a great glimpse into the time at which this document was created. The regiment to which this company belonged participated in the war that was fought in New York State.

 

Definately a very rare item, with an interesting past.

 

Chris

[cpatrick]

..

[cpatrick]

One thing that is unique about paper artifacts from this period, is that they were written on what is called "Reed paper". In addition to the high rag content that this type of paper used, the paper also has a distinct cordoroy texture to it. We don't usually see Civil War period documents with this style paper - it's usually found only on Revolutionary War and War of 1812 era documents. (The Declaration of Independence used this same type of paper) Though this style of paper was used up until the Civil War period, (1860's), Reed Paper began to wain in the 1830's.

 

Chris

[disneydave]

Interesting. I have a nice Niles Weekly newspaper from the war that details the British and Canadian advance on Washington, D.C. and the burning of the President's Mansion. Two great books on the topic are Pierre Burton's "War of 1812" and "Flames Across the Border."

[cpatrick]

Dave,

 

Thanks for the comments. I have actually read "Flames Across the Border" - excellent book. The newspaper that you mention seems very interesting as well. War of 1812 items seem to be about as hard to find as Revolutionary War items - I'd love to see the newspaper! It seems as though the accounts in that paper are less than typical.

 

Chris

[BEAST]

Here is another item from my early American militaria collection. This is an original War of 1812 Pay Roster for a company of New York Militia, dated 1813. (Yes, the war lasted for two years) This was originally in the late William Guthman Collection, a very well known, advanced scholar and collector of early American militaria. I was fortunate enough to obtain a few choice items from his collection after his passing. It's interesting to see that at least five men in this company alone were listed as "Deserted" - a great glimpse into the time at which this document was created. The regiment to which this company belonged participated in the war that was fought in New York State.

 

Definately a very rare item, with an interesting past.

 

Chris

 

Chris.

A very nice item! War of 1812 militaria is a particular interest of mine (wish I could afford the uniforms!). The war actually continued until 1815, ending with (IIRC) the Treaty of Ghent. After the treaty was signed, but before news could reach the forces in the US, the British attacked a mixed force of regulars and miliitia at New Orleans. The US forces led by Andrew Jackson defeated the British. THis victory led the way for Jackson's successful run for the Presidency.

 

Your fortunate to get a peice from Guthman's collection. William Guthman was quite an advanced scholar and collector of early American militaria. He was also often on "The Antique Roadshow". The catalog from the auction of his collection was amazing!

 

Well done!

[cpatrick]

Chris.

A very nice item! War of 1812 militaria is a particular interest of mine (wish I could afford the uniforms!). The war actually continued until 1815, ending with (IIRC) the Treaty of Ghent. After the treaty was signed, but before news could reach the forces in the US, the British attacked a mixed force of regulars and miliitia at New Orleans. The US forces led by Andrew Jackson defeated the British. THis victory led the way for Jackson's successful run for the Presidency.

 

Your fortunate to get a peice from Guthman's collection. William Guthman was quite an advanced scholar and collector of early American militaria. He was also often on "The Antique Roadshow". The catalog from the auction of his collection was amazing!

 

Well done!

 

Beast,

 

Yes, the Guthman Collection was probaby THE most advanced early Americana collection that I have have seen. Some of his regimentally painted Revolutionary War & War of 1812 drums were breath taking. What I loved about Guthman is that he not only was a scholar, but also a very enthusiastic teacher of what he knew. He certainly made an impact on the collecting community, and he will certainly be missed!

 

I think that the War of 1812, like the Mexican War of 1846, are largely forgotten wars. Had these wars not been fought, or had they turned out differently, the United States would not be what it is today. The War of 1812 is sometimes referred to as an extention of the war that began in 1775-76. It even began in similar ways, with a rocky start on the part of the Americans. A British man that I know stands very firm that had England not been involved with the Seven Years War, the colonial rebellion would have been crushed, and quickly - there would have been no War of 1812. Then, England picked another fight with us, while they were engaged elsewhere (1812). So which was it? Were we just lucky? Or was England not the greatest strategist's in the world? Hell, look at Monty! Things didn't change by WWII either!! It had taken Patton and Ike to show some brevity for their patience with the enemy.

 

Thanks for the discussion BEAST.

 

Chris

[BEAST]

Beast,

 

Yes, the Guthman Collection was probaby THE most advanced early Americana collection that I have have seen. Some of his regimentally painted Revolutionary War & War of 1812 drums were breath taking. What I loved about Guthman is that he not only was a scholar, but also a very enthusiastic teacher of what he knew. He certainly made an impact on the collecting community, and he will certainly be missed!

 

I think that the War of 1812, like the Mexican War of 1846, are largely forgotten wars. Had these wars not been fought, or had they turned out differently, the United States would not be what it is today. The War of 1812 is sometimes referred to as an extention of the war that began in 1775-76. It even began in similar ways, with a rocky start on the part of the Americans. A British man that I know stands very firm that had England not been involved with the Seven Years War, the colonial rebellion would have been crushed, and quickly - there would have been no War of 1812. Then, England picked another fight with us, while they were engaged elsewhere (1812). So which was it? Were we just lucky? Or was England not the greatest strategist's in the world? Hell, look at Monty! Things didn't change by WWII either!! It had taken Patton and Ike to show some brevity for their patience with the enemy.

 

Thanks for the discussion BEAST.

 

Chris

 

Chris,

One point to consider is that King George III suffered from porphyria, which affected his judgement. George III ruled England during the French & Indiana War, the American Revolution and the War of 1812. I will agree to a point that England was stretched very thin, having to deal with Napoleon.

 

We were not blessed with the greatest military leadership either. Our Navy/USMC was probably the best led of all of our forces, having real world experience. The leadership of our Army ws made up of too many political appointees. The politician's strategic view was also poor. It was believed by many senior leaders that Canada was just waiting for us to come forth and liberate them from England. "A mere matter of marching" was how it was termed. I don't think anyone bothered telling the Canadians this!

 

Fortunetly(?) the war lasted long enough for many talented officer's to rise into key leadership roles. General Winfield Scott in the east and General William Henry Harrison in the western theater produced victories that helped bring the British to the negotiating table.

 

OK, I have probably gone on too long about this. Pierre Berton's books are good introductions to the war, but excellent more in-depth books that are well worth reading. I can look through my library for recommendations if anyone is interested.

[KASTAUFFER]

Bill was on " Antiques Roadshow FYI " in 1995 and took them back into his " treasure room " . It was breath taking . His collection was probably better than the Smithsonian's .

 

Kurt

[disneydave]

Don't short the Canadians in either the War of 1812 or WW II...and don't forget the Russians in WW II either - if not for bleeding the Germans on the eastern Front and capturing literally hundreds of thousands of German prisoners, I think the Normandy landings would have played out quite differently. But, that's a debate for another thread...

[cpatrick]

I have no doubts about the qualities of the Tommy or Canuk. Even as far as the high leadership is concerned, Churchill was one of the finest leaders of the 20th century. I'm just not a big Monty fan.

 

BEAST,

 

Your insight into King George was rather interesting. I would certainly be interested in your literary recommendations!

 

KASTAUFFER,

 

I would love to see that segment on ARS FYI. I might just check out Youtube... To say that his collection rivals that of the Smithsonian would seem to be an overstatement by many, but I would whole heartidly agree with you! One would have to see it, in order to believe it!

 

Chris

[disneydave]

Beast...I'd be interested in hearing about any books on the topic you think would be a good read.

[BEAST]

Sorry to take so long in responding. Most of my books are packed away and I thought I knew where my 1812 books were located. One book that I thought gave an excellent overview of the war is "AMATEURS, TO ARMS! A Military History of the War of 1812" by John R. Elting. Published in 1991 by Algonquin Books of Chapel Hill. Although Colonel Elting concentrates heavily on the Eastern theater, I think that this is one of the best general histories of the war in recent years.

 

I have others that focus on the naval war or a particular theater, and will post these as I come across them. If anyone else has recommendations, I would like to hear those too!