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US Civil War Bayonet (maybe), with questions

Started by oddmod , Oct 16 2011 04:42 PM

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#1 oddmod

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 04:42 PM

I picked this Martin Enfield pattern 1853 (and a French 1882 Gras bayonet) up recently. These two and a Zouave bayonet which I saw, but was stolen before I could buy it all came from the estate collection of a gentleman who, according to his son, had them in his possession since the 1920's.

I am not an edged weapons collector (though you wouldn't know it to look at some of the blades I've acquired)... so my knowledge of these things is limited to what I can gleam online.

Overall length is 21.25"...... blade 17"......scabbard 17 7/8"

It is my understanding that these bayonets, while mfg. in the UK, were used by both sides during the American Civil War, is that correct, and would any of the markings on the blade or scabbard help to verify that (export / import marks, for example)???

Questions, comments, inquires are welcome.

Thanks,

JC

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#2 oddmod

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 04:43 PM

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#3 oddmod

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 04:43 PM

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#4 oddmod

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 04:44 PM

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#5 Mr.Jerry

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 04:20 AM

I am not a CW gun expert, but I would be surprised with the broad arrow proof that it was exported and used here.

#6 SARGE

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 08:59 AM

I agree, a British military used bayonet and not a US or CS import.

#7 340MGBAT

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 01:34 PM

I might be wrong but if I remember correctly the broad arrow with WD below it (W↑D) stands for Western Desert so my guess would be that this bayonet was used in British colonial Africa in the 1850s - 1860s.

#8 Bob Hudson

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 01:57 PM

I might be wrong but if I remember correctly the broad arrow with WD below it (W↑D) stands for Western Desert so my guess would be that this bayonet was used in British colonial Africa in the 1850s - 1860s.



It appears that some with the broad arrow and WD did in fact make it to the US during the Civil War:


http://www.usmilitar...d...ost&p=49550

#9 Cobrahistorian

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 02:25 PM

W^D stands for "War Department".

I might be wrong but if I remember correctly the broad arrow with WD below it (W↑D) stands for Western Desert so my guess would be that this bayonet was used in British colonial Africa in the 1850s - 1860s.



#10 bayonetman

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 03:12 PM

This is somewhat out of my field, but I do feel that I should make a couple of comments nonetheless.

I don't see anything in the link to the other USMF thread that says the Broad Arrow marked bayonets were used in the US. The long bayonet shown as a relic in the display case is most likely not an Enfield bayonet, but the Pattern 1876 Martini-Henry socket bayonet. How it got where it was found is of course a question, but the blade length was not used until that time to the best of my knowledge.

http://arms2armor.co...nets/mh1876.htm

The one at the beginning of this thread is marked E over W (Broad Arrow) D which would be Enfield Arsenal, the primary British military arsenal at the time. Although it is not impossible that one of these made it over, it is unlikely as these were first line military and were not sold to the combatants. Almost all the rifle muskets and bayonets imported were made by one of the private companies, usually part of the Birmingham trade. Also one set of issue marks have been crossed out indicating it was at least for some time issued to a British unit. For all practical purposes, any W (BA) D marked bayonet would have to be considered non-civil war used unless there is some very strong provenance.

I am moving this thread to the Edged Weapons forum where it is more appropriate.

Edited by bayonetman, 17 October 2011 - 03:14 PM.


#11 Still-A-Marine

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 03:24 AM

The scabbard is post 1866. The correct version would have straight sides vs. curved.

Bill

#12 340MGBAT

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 07:08 PM

W^D stands for "War Department".


:blink: Thanks for the correction, sorry if I confused anyone :pinch:

#13 oddmod

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 03:52 PM

Thank you everyone for the information.

So if I understand correctly, to sum it all up, this style bayonet was used during the US Civil War, but the British War Dept. stamp would tend to indicate that this particular bayonet was not used over here.

One question regarding WD stamps on 20thcentury items, I seem to recall seeing WW2 era items with broad arrow stamps on them that had been used by the US. Presumably the Allied nature of the US/UK relationship during the 20th century would allow for things like that to happen. But the 19th century relationship, which was more mercantile than military would have precluded it from occurring. Does that sound about right ?

Still-A-Marine (or anyone else for that matter), any chance you could provide a photo of a pre 1866 scabbard, assuming it could have been US used, for comparison.

Thanks again,

JC

#14 Still-A-Marine

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 05:10 PM

...Still-A-Marine (or anyone else for that matter), any chance you could provide a photo of a pre 1866 scabbard, assuming it could have been US used, for comparison.

Thanks again,

JC


Will be happy to but can't until this weekend.

I also have an article by Graham Priest entitled "Enfield" Bayonets in the Civil War 1861-1865. If you would like a copy I can send a pdf file. The article explains which P1853 bayonets are possible Civil War weapons and which ones would not have been used in the Civil War. It also covers the scabbards. If you want a copy just send me your email address as a PM.

Bill

#15 oddmod

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 06:29 PM

Will be happy to but can't until this weekend.

I also have an article by Graham Priest entitled "Enfield" Bayonets in the Civil War 1861-1865. If you would like a copy I can send a pdf file. The article explains which P1853 bayonets are possible Civil War weapons and which ones would not have been used in the Civil War. It also covers the scabbards. If you want a copy just send me your email address as a PM.

Bill



Bill,

Will do, thank you.

JC

#16 Still-A-Marine

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 12:10 AM

...Still-A-Marine (or anyone else for that matter), any chance you could provide a photo of a pre 1866 scabbard, assuming it could have been US used, for comparison.

Thanks again,

JC


In the pictures the;
1) two on the right are the early first version
2) two in the middle are the second version
3) two on the left are post Civil War

Bill

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