Here's One That Would Probably Be Called A Fake

[seanmc1114]

I ran across this picture of a Special Forces staff sergeant in Vietnam a while back. If this uniform ever showed up for sale anywhere, I have no doubt it would be labeled a put-together without this photo as provenance. The guy barely looks 20 years old but he has obviously been around the block.

[carnut63]

Maybe he put his uniform together back then to look cool.

[Nack]

Maybe he put his uniform together back then to look cool.

 

IDK about that...

[patches]

I ran across this picture of a Special Forces staff sergeant in Vietnam a while back. If this uniform ever showed up for sale anywhere, I have no doubt it would be labeled a put-together without this photo as provenance. The guy barely looks 20 years old but he has obviously been around the block.

 

I guess this one will be for the SF expert guys on the USMF site to verify, they do have alot of info at their disposal, it is though a most interresting photo the only badge where not seeing is the ranger tab, the wear of sudbued U.S. army and name tapes printed on OD webb with all colored badges and shoulder patch with tab tells us a 1967 to 1969 time frame. this man is obviously one who looks younger than he is there are some like that like me for instance 50 but I look like I,am in my 30s to early 40s no joke when i was around the age of this guy which I would think would be apx 25 26 I still looked like a teenager. There is however something about his eyes, see if you can see what I see about his eyes.

[gwb123]

Hmmm... Airborne, Rigger, Pathfinder with a CIB and an Aircrew wing.

 

Possible. He'd be one super troop. Such people did exist.

 

I find it odd though, that with all of this stuff on him he doesn't have a combat patch on his right shoulder to go along with his CIB.

 

Also, the Rigger qualification comes under Quartermaster. It's possible that he earned a CIB as an infantryman, and perhaps the Pathfinder qualification as well. But otherwise a Rigger would generally not have a CIB.

 

The Aircrew wing also seems to be an odd mix here.

 

Going by his insignia he was at one time an infantryman who served in a combat zone, an aircrew member, and eventually a Rigger. Crazy, but there were career soldiers that did move from one MOS to another to fulfill the needs of the Army.

 

I'll be curious to see if anyone can pull his name.

[ssggates]

Everything looks plausible to me. I think there's a rule now about not wearing more than one set of foreign wings on the right side, not sure though. I've seen plenty of aircrew wings on guys from all sorts of different units and MOSs. And most SF guys come out of other units anyway. Overall this one wouldn't strike me as a put-together.

[patches]

Hmmm... Airborne, Rigger, Pathfinder with a CIB and an Aircrew wing.

 

Possible. He'd be one super troop. Such people did exist.

 

I find it odd though, that with all of this stuff on him he doesn't have a combat patch on his right shoulder to go along with his CIB.

 

Also, the Rigger qualification comes under Quartermaster. It's possible that he earned a CIB as an infantryman, and perhaps the Pathfinder qualification as well. But otherwise a Rigger would generally not have a CIB.

 

The Aircrew wing also seems to be an odd mix here.

 

Going by his insignia he was at one time an infantryman who served in a combat zone, an aircrew member, and eventually a Rigger. Crazy, but there were career soldiers that did move from one MOS to another to fulfill the needs of the Army.

 

I'll be curious to see if anyone can pull his name.

 

It may be that the photo was taken in vietnam itself which might explain the lack of a combat patch, that he has been in the army several years but was on his first tour when this photo was taken. The wearing of regular fatiques was still occasionally seen even in 67 -68 when not in the field so I' am not worried on that . But I'll say it is curious given all the badges that he has that involved jumping that he does not have at least a senior parachute badge.

[jim2]

I find it odd though, that with all of this stuff on him he doesn't have a combat patch on his right shoulder to go along with his CIB.

 

I have several uniforms that belonged to a trooper that saw combat with the 501st in WWII and served up to and including vietnam. All his fatigues shirts only have his current unit and no CIB, the only uniform that he wore a 101st combat patch and cib was his class A's, so it is possible this soldier chose to not wear one.

[jim2]

I found this on-line, I think it could be the same guy:

 

 

On A-242, SSG "Sissy" Johnny Hollis (multiple tours, Laos, Vietnam, etc.,.. highly decorated for REAL..picture posted below), had a set of fatigues that had so many patches on it that it was rediculous (in the Army, you are what you wear... which is why people who fake awards are such piriahs)... and he was entitled to each and every one. A surviving teammate I visited recently, **** McAvoy (see below), has a picture of Hollis wearing that fully patch-equipped uniform. If I get a copy, I'll post it.

 

[jim2]

I also found this. I believe this is the same man as in the 1st photo:

 

http://family.webshots.com/photo/1252405777064383376mUGGhf

[noexpert]

"I find it odd though, that with all of this stuff on him he doesn't have a combat patch on his right shoulder to go along with his CIB."

 

 

I think this doubling up of patches is a recent phenomenon. If you look at the films of the 82nd Div marching in the NYC Victory Parade you'll see that they wear their active patch only and many WWII uniforms come w/o a "combat" patch. When I was at Devens the 10th SF was based there and many, if not most, of the members wore VN ribbons and I never saw any wearing a "combat" patch. Back then, unless you changed units, the last one you were in was the one you wore (SF guys wore just the left SF patch, ASA guys wore just the left ASA patch...). [This is an observation only - just to save everyone running to their copy of the DR's for 196-whatever... I can only speak to what I saw. ]

[Andrei]

I also found this. I believe this is the same man as in the 1st photo:

 

http://family.webshots.com/photo/1252405777064383376mUGGhf

I too believe this is the same man. Same ears and jaw.

[patches]

"I find it odd though, that with all of this stuff on him he doesn't have a combat patch on his right shoulder to go along with his CIB."

I think this doubling up of patches is a recent phenomenon. If you look at the films of the 82nd Div marching in the NYC Victory Parade you'll see that they wear their active patch only and many WWII uniforms come w/o a "combat" patch. When I was at Devens the 10th SF was based there and many, if not most, of the members wore VN ribbons and I never saw any wearing a "combat" patch. Back then, unless you changed units, the last one you were in was the one you wore (SF guys wore just the left SF patch, ASA guys wore just the left ASA patch...).

 

The wear of combat patches was farelly common by the mid 60s, they where worn on fatique items starting in the korean war, the fashion became more acceptable after the arrival of General Matthew Ridgeway in Korea who would be seen wearing a XVII Airborne Corps combat patch on his field items, the wearing of combat patches on all uniform items throughout the remainder of the 50s in to the 60s more of a personal preferance whether one would do so or not, in the 50s some did but most did not. But as you said some guys din'nt wear the double patches whether on fatique items or Class A and khaki uniforms, having said that Double patched uniforms could be seen, many men who fought in the 1st Brigade 101st Airborne Division in 65-66 would find themselves back with the remaining 2 brigades at Ft Campbell after they returned from nam(After a nice leave of course) and I have seen the 101 as a combat patch being worn in photos in Army periodicals and the like during this time frame before the remainder of the division was sent over. Even in vietnam combat patches where very common among 2nd tour soldiers, though it is basically a crap shoot to see one if the soldier was serving in the same division/brigade/command for a 2nd tour.I have seen some photos of 101 double patched soldiers in vietnam, though it must have as I say been a 50/50 chance. If this photo of this trooper was taken in Vietnam itself which I believe it was as he's wearing the 5th group flash on his beret, than its possiable that him being on his second 2nd tour may of found the wearing of a SF combat patch superfluous.

[Andrei]

Once I had a sandwiched 101st (full color merrowed edge including the tab) with direct embroidered name and USA tape and CIB. I guess that Beezman had one similar and I know at least two other identicals. Looks like they were done in the same place by the same machine and machinist. All for leg Screaming Eagles. And all legit.

[Andrei]

Multiple qualification badged BDUs were not uncommon after VN. I had several in my collection. Unfortunately I did not take pics before selling my BDU/DCU collection.

[seanmc1114]

I thought when I posted the first picture I could locate the site where I downloaded it. I can't find it now, but I'm pretty sure the guy was assigned to Company E (Signal) 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne) in Vietnam when the picture was taken. Here is another one of the same guy from the same site with a better shot of his badges over the left pocket. They all look to be theater made to me.

[seanmc1114]

Everything looks plausible to me. I think there's a rule now about not wearing more than one set of foreign wings on the right side, not sure though. I've seen plenty of aircrew wings on guys from all sorts of different units and MOSs. And most SF guys come out of other units anyway. Overall this one wouldn't strike me as a put-together.

That's not two different foreign wings he's wearing. The bottom is the U.S. Army Parachute Rigger badge and the top is the Vietnamese Parachutist Badge.

 

By the way, my post was not to argue whether the guy in the photo is wearing a put-together uniform. I don't question that both he and the uniform are 100% legitimate and he was 100% tough. My point was to suggest that if this same uniform were to appear for sale somewhere, for example on e-Bay, I'll bet there would be a lot of people who would question its legitimacy.

 

Also, here is another photo from the same site. Notice this guy is not wearing an Airborne tab with his Special Forces SSI, which I believe was part of the organizational patch as opposed to an individual qualifier, even though he is wearing jump wings

[Andrei]

Captain Larry Dring was a big fan of fully badged uniforms. Here is his ERDL when he was assigned to either the MEDTC or the 46th Coy.

 

[Andrei]

Also, here is another photo from the same site. Notice this guy is not wearing an Airborne tab with his Special Forces SSI, which I believe was part of the organizational patch as opposed to an individual qualifier, even though he is wearing jump wings

 

This is some SF picture...

What about a genuine SF trooper who did not have ready at hand an Airborne tab to sew ? If he was not SF qualified he could not have the full flash, no ?

[noexpert]

I forget sometimes that I run to the older end of the spectrum here, so "recent" for me the "past" for a lot of other people. I'm thinking of "recent" as being post-VN (but still fatigues, khaki's, etc)- yikes. And, of course, as with any war - guys often did what they wanted (or could get away with) to their uniforms. I tried to note in brackets at the end that I was making an observation, not a final statement on the subject...so I'm sure that there were double patched everything's, but it wasn't the rule, as it seems to be now (or until the Army went blue) - and expecting to see it and therefore questioning a uniform from that time period w/o would probably be an error was the point I was attempting to bring to the table.

 

I also may have found a piece of info indicating that Johnnie L. Hollis was the NCOIC of the Special Warfare Center Parachute Rigger Detachment c. 1957 when he and the detachment volunteered to help what would become the Golden Knights. If I've got the right guy then he's definately older than he looks. Eventually he retired as a CSM...again, if I've found the right man.

[kammo-man]

Stunning Uniform Andrei !

 

Bob has one more jacket belonging to this man .

 

 

owen

[ssggates]

That's not two different foreign wings he's wearing. The bottom is the U.S. Army Parachute Rigger badge and the top is the Vietnamese Parachutist Badge.

 

By the way, my post was not to argue whether the guy in the photo is wearing a put-together uniform. I don't question that both he and the uniform are 100% legitimate and he was 100% tough. My point was to suggest that if this same uniform were to appear for sale somewhere, for example on e-Bay, I'll bet there would be a lot of people who would question its legitimacy.

 

Also, here is another photo from the same site. Notice this guy is not wearing an Airborne tab with his Special Forces SSI, which I believe was part of the organizational patch as opposed to an individual qualifier, even though he is wearing jump wings

 

Ah gotcha. Was in a hurry and didn't look that closely honestly. Same principal applies though I believe. And you're right, I'm sure he's "100% tough"! :thumbsup:

[AK101]

The problem with 'hard n' fast' rules when it comes to collecting, is it seems there are none.

 

The "they never did it that way" crowd seem to get proven wrong on most things....not all...but most.

[River Patrol]

The problem with 'hard n' fast' rules when it comes to collecting, is it seems there are none.

 

The "they never did it that way" crowd seem to get proven wrong on most things....not all...but most.

 

Just one point of clarification on the above statement. People should not be out to prove SOMEONE wrong. That is not how the scientific method is used - which is what alot of people try to employ - becuase people would rather take sides and stay unyielding, than debate a subject and be flexable. In reality, you need to present information that supports your own hypothesis (or satisfies your null hypothesis - but I understand that's getting too deep for most).

 

The "they never did it that way" crowd present a hypothesis (or the start of one) to be challanged, while the "anything goes" crowd has no framework (e.g. chaos/entropy theories) to build upon, and are more likely to accept a fake than the "they never did it that way" group (and we do know there are tons of fakes out there). I would rather have the item I see consistently in photographs 9 times out of 10, over the anomoly that is found only once in a blue moon. (But that is not to say I don't like rare items - because i do - see my 101st Airborne Camo beret thread).

 

 

 

What site are these photographs from? I know you said you couldn't find it again, but it would be nice to know.

 

 

I'm just throwing this out there but i think the photos looked staged and the negatives artificially aged/scrathced......could this be possible? Absolutely...until i know more about the source....

[gwb123]

By the way, my post was not to argue whether the guy in the photo is wearing a put-together uniform. I don't question that both he and the uniform are 100% legitimate and he was 100% tough. My point was to suggest that if this same uniform were to appear for sale somewhere, for example on e-Bay, I'll bet there would be a lot of people who would question its legitimacy.

 

You are making an excellent point! If one of these uniforms showed up in a flea market or Goodwill we'd all be scratching our heads over it... even worse if it came from an unknown seller on eBay.

 

I wasn't trying to question the uniform or the legitimacy of the photo. It was more of thinking out loud (or in print) of what these badges represented for this soldier's career. As I said, such super soldiers existed. This is the kind of thing you often see coming out of Ft. Bragg were many soldiers made a career of high profile assignments.

 

As far as the combat patch, everybody is correct that you saw it both ways. And yes, if someone was in back to back assignments with the same unit, often they just stuck with wearing a patch on their left shoulder indicating their current assignment.

 

These photos are great. Thanks for finding them and sharing them.