Tiffany Cross Recipients

[4STARCHRIS]

It's on the obverse, not the reverse. If it had nothing to do with WW1, to what do those dates refer?

 

The comment I was responding to strongly implied that the "Tiffany Cross" MoH was a "non-combat" award and asked for a citation stating otherwise. My collection of official regulations relate mostly to uniforms and insignia, and while they differentiate between the "old" (star-shaped) and "new" (Tiffany Cross) Medals of Honor, they do not get into the awarding criteria. I did however provide several references, including an official publication, to support the claim that it was the position of the Navy Dept. that the Tiffany Cross was a "combat action" decoration, and specifically for World War I service. I don't see what the above has to do with the Tiffany Cross being a "combat action" decoration.

 

Justin B.

 

"I did however provide several references, including an official publication, to support the claim that it was the position of the Navy Dept. that the Tiffany Cross was a "combat action" decoration, and specifically for World War I service. I don't see what the above has to do with the Tiffany Cross being a "combat action" decoration."

 

As mentioned above by you. The Tiffant Cross was NOT a WWI specifically MoH. No where does it state this in the regulation. It was as I again mentioned factually above, the Sect of the Navy Daniel getting a Special Board to look at action during WWI, well after WWI was over, to see if any deeds should be honored. The tiffany cross awarded to navy and usmc personnel was retroactive and NO tiffany crosses were awarded during WWI.

The dates have nothing to do with the time frame on the "obverse" as you mentioned. It is like the purple heart saying "for merit" on the obverse in today regs has nothing to to with wounds. Tiffany crosses were awarded well past these "obverse" dates.

I mentioned also in my posting I was being the devil advocate to show how confusing the two MoH system was then and even now.

4starchris

[Justin B.]

As mentioned above by you. The Tiffant Cross was NOT a WWI specifically MoH. No where does it state this in the regulation. It was as I again mentioned factually above, the Sect of the Navy Daniel getting a Special Board to look at action during WWI, well after WWI was over, to see if any deeds should be honored. The tiffany cross awarded to navy and usmc personnel was retroactive and NO tiffany crosses were awarded during WWI.

The dates have nothing to do with the time frame on the "obverse" as you mentioned. It is like the purple heart saying "for merit" on the obverse in today regs has nothing to to with wounds. Tiffany crosses were awarded well past these "obverse" dates.

 

No one said they were awarded "during" WW1. What I said was "for WW1 service." Again, if it "had nothing to do with WW1," to what do the years on the Tiffany Cross refer? I guess I may be missing your point.

 

I mentioned also in my posting I was being the devil advocate to show how confusing the two MoH system was then and even now.

 

That was not at all clear to me, and I daresay to many readers, which is why I responded to attempt to clarify an incorrect implication.

 

Justin B.

[4STARCHRIS]

"the position of the Navy Dept. that the Tiffany Cross was a "combat action" decoration, and specifically for World War I service. I don't see what the above has to do with the Tiffany Cross being a "combat action" decoration." This is not factual true nor does it say this in the regulations.

 

"and specifically for World War I service", this is not true, and you posted it in #50.

 

"What I said was "for WW1 service", this is not true. Fact being, as I mentioned before, Sect Daniels formed a Special Board to look at deeds from WWI.

 

Fact: the "1917-1918" date is like "merit" is to the purple heart, means nothing.

Fact: the tiffany cross was awarded well into the 1930's, again making the point of the 1917-1918 dates unimportant or obsolete.

Fact: Yes there was awarding of the tiffany cross,"combat" for "non-combat" deeds. Even thought the Navy type V was for non-combat deeds. One of the reasons so many are confused about the tiffany cross.

 

Fact: Two factual, non-combat, tiffany cross recipients are Bennett and Byrd by Special legislation. But what is not factual clear is what type of MoH, tiffany cross or type V were given to Henry Drexler and George Cholister, non-combat recipients for deed on Oct 20, 1924. Many articles and links suggest the tiffany cross. However, I am not sure. Maybe some member can clarify this? Also part of this Act was Richmond Hobson for his deed done on June 3, 1898, outside, "1917-1918" dates.

 

So one can FACTUAL see that the "1917-1918" dates did not signify that the tiffany cross was a MoH for a specific period or war. It is also obvious that the tiffany cross was given for deeds other than "combat".

 

My statements of "FACTS" is not to belittle anyone or any site or article. Just to "FACTUAL" show this is one misunderstood MoH to many even to this date, and understandably so.

 

My hopes is to try and FACTUAL clear the misunderstanding.

 

Again, my devil's advocate stance is still here. I can find he said, she said statment to validate both sides, proving my point, no matter what side you are on you can find articles and links to validate your view. FACTUAL, maybe not so much.

4starchris

[Justin B.]

^Yes, I think I follow you now. I agree the two versions of the Navy MoH created something of a muddle almost from the start. But the post I was responding to said that rewarding heroism in combat was "not the point" of the Tiffany Cross. I think it's pretty clear that was the intent of the Navy Dept. in creating the new decoration, however confused things became in the execution later on.

 

Justin B.

[4STARCHRIS]

I agree with you Justin. It remains unclear to this date.

 

I hope I was able to add something to this thread in clearing up the mass confusion.

 

This is probably why a date was also never added to the back side of a MoH.

4starchris

[emccomas]

Also part of this Act was Richmond Hobson for his deed done on June 3, 1898, outside, "1917-1918" dates.

 

I am still working on Drexler and Cholister, but this is a picture labeled "Admiral Hobson getting Medal of Honor from FDR" (awarded 1933). That sure looks like a star version of the MOH. There is also a painting of Richard Hobson dated 1937 that shows him wearing the star MOH.

 

Here is the link where I found the picture..

 

http://www.uic.edu/~hhstokes/hobson/hobsonfdr.jpg

 

[4STARCHRIS]

What a great post. This appears to be the type V Navy MoH. Thank you for your contribution on this thread.

 

 

However, Again this shows the confusion of the dual medals. His deed if I am not mistaken was "combat", sinking of a ship if memories serves me right.

A veteran of the Spanish-American War, he received the Medal of Honor years later for his part in that conflict.

 

On 29 April 1933, for his "extraordinary heroism" during the the Spanish-American War was awarded the Medal of Honor.

 

Technically, he should of been given a tiffany cross. But, he could of also been given a tiffany cross and then asked for the Type IX after the tiffany cross was obsolete.

4starchris

[emccomas]

But, he could of also been given a tiffany cross and then asked for the Type IX after the tiffany cross was obsolete.

4starchris

 

Yes, but not really a focus of my research. I am researching which recipients were "originally" awarded the Tiffany Cross MOH. There are definitely examples of recipients gettign the TC, and then subsequently requesting a star version.

 

The photo, I believe, shows Richard Hobson just after receiving the MOH from FDR (i.e. minutes later, not days or weeks).

I believe that this photo was taken as part of the award ceremony. I make this assumption because Hobson is wearing a star MOH in the Oval Office with FDR in this photo. Hobson was not, as best I can determine, a frequent visitor to the White House. Furthermore, I cannot imagine that he would wear his MOH with civilian clothing on a subsequent visit to the White House. Finally, I am making an assumption that Hobson did not first recieve a Tiffany (from anyone) and then request a star MOH which was presented by FDR.

 

Now what exactly FDR and Hobson are looking at is still a question.

 

I am also making an assumption that he did not receive a Tiffany and then immediately request a star.

 

In my research on recipients of the Tiffany Cross, one assumption I make is that if I can locate a photograph of the recipient taken during the award ceremony (or immediately after), then that is reasonable evidence as to the type of MOH the recipient received. Whether or not the recipient later requested a star version of the MOH is not really the focus of my research.

 

I do understand that a photograph of a recipient with a star MOH is NOT evidence that this is the type of MOH the recipient initially received.

 

However, a photograph of a recipient with a Tiffany Cross is, in my opinion, evidence that this is the type of MOH that the recipient received. I don't believe there is a case of a recipient receiving a star MOH, and then requesting a Tiffany Cross version.

 

Yes, a lot of assumnptions here, but all reasonably founded, IMHO.

 

Last, I may have a location on Drexler's MOH. According to the record of the 145th General Assembly of Deleware, Drexler's MOH, sword, and uniform are at the Air Mobility Command Museum at Dover AFB. I have sent an email to the curator asking if they have Drexler's MOH, and what type it is. I have also asked for pictures if posssible.

 

Oh, one other assumption I make is that if the MOH was awarded posthumously, then the family did not request a different version at some later date. Therefore, if Drexler's MOH is a star version, I will assume that is the version that was presented to his family (same for a Tiffany version).

 

I guess I need to write down all of my assumptions in a clear manner.

 

Also please forgive my use of "star MOH". I don't distinguish between different types of the non-Tifany Cross version, and it is an easy way to describe this version of the MOH.

[4STARCHRIS]

Yes, but not really a focus of my research. I am researching which recipients were "originally" awarded the Tiffany Cross MOH. There are definitely examples of recipients gettign the TC, and then subsequently requesting a star version.

 

The photo, I believe, shows Richard Hobson just after receiving the MOH from FDR (i.e. minutes later, not days or weeks).

I believe that this photo was taken as part of the award ceremony. I make this assumption because Hobson is wearing a star MOH in the Oval Office with FDR in this photo. Hobson was not, as best I can determine, a frequent visitor to the White House. Furthermore, I cannot imagine that he would wear his MOH with civilian clothing on a subsequent visit to the White House. Finally, I am making an assumption that Hobson did not first recieve a Tiffany (from anyone) and then request a star MOH which was presented by FDR.

 

Now what exactly FDR and Hobson are looking at is still a question.

 

I am also making an assumption that he did not receive a Tiffany and then immediately request a star.

 

In my research on recipients of the Tiffany Cross, one assumption I make is that if I can locate a photograph of the recipient taken during the award ceremony (or immediately after), then that is reasonable evidence as to the type of MOH the recipient received. Whether or not the recipient later requested a star version of the MOH is not really the focus of my research.

 

I do understand that a photograph of a recipient with a star MOH is NOT evidence that this is the type of MOH the recipient initially received.

 

However, a photograph of a recipient with a Tiffany Cross is, in my opinion, evidence that this is the type of MOH that the recipient received. I don't believe there is a case of a recipient receiving a star MOH, and then requesting a Tiffany Cross version.

 

Yes, a lot of assumnptions here, but all reasonably founded, IMHO.

 

Last, I may have a location on Drexler's MOH. According to the record of the 145th General Assembly of Deleware, Drexler's MOH, sword, and uniform are at the Air Mobility Command Museum at Dover AFB. I have sent an email to the curator asking if they have Drexler's MOH, and what type it is. I have also asked for pictures if posssible.

 

Oh, one other assumption I make is that if the MOH was awarded posthumously, then the family did not request a different version at some later date. Therefore, if Drexler's MOH is a star version, I will assume that is the version that was presented to his family (same for a Tiffany version).

 

I guess I need to write down all of my assumptions in a clear manner.

 

Also please forgive my use of "star MOH". I don't distinguish between different types of the non-Tifany Cross version, and it is an easy way to describe this version of the MOH.

 

Also the confusing part is there is a web site for Drexler and Cholister using the tiffany cross MoH on the page. However, again with the dual medals this dosen't nesessary mean this is what was given.

I am like you, I want FACTUAL proof that the tiffany cross was given. Not links or heresay.

 

This thread has become very interesting in trying to clear up my from fact about the dual Navy MoH system at the time. Maybe after all these years we can finally make right and accurate a list of the reicpients and the type of MoH they recieved.

4starchris

[SEABEEBRIAN]

One thing I am going to try to research is the circumstances for the award of the Tiffany Cross to Admiral Byrd and the other non-combat award. It had to be a deliberate decision by someone to not follow the law in that case so there should be some documentation.

 

Perhaps someone, citing the act of congress, can get the CMOHS and the other entities out there to change their website to reflect the facts so maybe others won't be misled. I've always known that the Tiffany Cross was a combat award and I never had reason to pull up the public law creating it so maybe it needs to be put out there to help others...

[4STARCHRIS]

One thing I am going to try to research is the circumstances for the award of the Tiffany Cross to Admiral Byrd and the other non-combat award. It had to be a deliberate decision by someone to not follow the law in that case so there should be some documentation.

 

Perhaps someone, citing the act of congress, can get the CMOHS and the other entities out there to change their website to reflect the facts so maybe others won't be misled. I've always known that the Tiffany Cross was a combat award and I never had reason to pull up the public law creating it so maybe it needs to be put out there to help others...

 

 

In my post 46 I was going by the regulations from that time period. As I mention earlier there can be as many as 4 non-combat tiffany crosses given out.

 

This is also what I have been saying all along, "devil's advocate". I can find articles and links to support both sides of the issues. But what are the Fats that support the tiffany cross.

 

Remember it was special legislation that awarded 7 MoH's and this may be where the answer lies. Did the Board not know of the two medal system ans just deemed the actions worthy of a MoH? Then someone else not knowing the two medal system pick it out of a hat per sey. Hobson was on of those and he recieved the wrong medal, non-combat, for combat actions?

4starchris

[emccomas]

Also the confusing part is there is a web site for Drexler and Cholister using the tiffany cross MoH on the page.

 

Chris;

Do you have links to these websites? They don't ring a bell with me.

Ed

[Wharfmaster]

Can anyone confirm that ALL Medal of Honor recipients after 1918 were photographed at time of award?

 

 

 

The Wharfmaster

 

 

 

 

 

In Peace and War. US Merchant Marine.

[4STARCHRIS]

http://theoldcoot.blogspot.com/2008/10/med...rexler-g-r.html

 

Again this is not my site. This show both getting the tiffany cross. Whether factual are not I am not sure. Hope this helps.

4starchris

[LuftStalg1]

In my research I have been specifically looking for photo evidence, undisputable but not always available. One thing that just became obvious, yes I am slow sometimes :emba0005: , via the comments of anther post about Balch receiving the Tiffany. When I looked at the photo of Balch receiving the medal you can not really see the medal BUT it is being pinned on his chest! The Star was NEVER pinned on the chest and was ALWAYS worn around the neck. The Tiffany, like the Army version, had the option to be worn around the neck. Anyway just thought I would point this out thinking others may be just as slow as me on this point.

 

 

Also, just looking over the grave marker's of these hero’s and found it interesting that only Boone (above the stars, faint) and Petty (just below the hat) have the image of the Tiffany on the grave markers. I remember seeing a plaque honoring one of the medical / dental recipients at the front of a hospital building in his name but can not remember or find that one at the moment. :think:

 

 

Lastly I thought it would be a nice idea, as with the Numbered MC Expeditionary Medal list on the forum, to start a list of Tiffany’s and the known locations. If anything I thought it would be nice to know where I/we could go to view and photograph one of this works of art. Just copy, edit / update the location in (parentheses), and repast your additions to the list.

 

 

(Name of Museum, Private Collection, Families possession etc…)

 

 

Graves, Ora

Ingram, Osmond Kelley

Cann, Tedford Harris

Upton, Frank Monroe

Lyle, Alexander Gordon

Sullivan, Daniel Augustus Joseph

Izac, Edward Victor Michael

Osborne, Weedon E. (FAKE, Navy Museum D.C.)

Hoffman, Charles F. AKA: Ernest August Janson

Petty, Orlando Henderson

Cukela, Louis

Kicak, Matej

Boone, Joel Thompson

Balch, John Henry

Hammann, Charles Hazeltine

Hayden, David Ephraim

Kelly, John Joseph

Pruitt, John Henry

Talbot, Ralph

Siegel, John Otto (CA Museum, Not displayed)

Button, William Robert

Hanneken, Herman Henry

Madison, James J.

Byrd, Richard Evelyn Jr.

Bennett, Floyd (NASM, D.C.)

Schilt, Christian Franklin

[Wharfmaster]

Great idea LS1! As said, a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

 

 

The Wharfmaster

 

 

 

 

 

Philippine Liberation, Courtesy of the 1st Cavalry Division. The "First Team". First in Manila, first in Tokyo. We remember them all.

[4STARCHRIS]

 

Never say never! LOL Here Schilt's Tiffany Cross is being pinned directly to his jacket.

 

Just to keep things honest. LOL

4starchris

 

P.S. Both of the stone where docs in the navy. Interesting enough!

[emccomas]

http://theoldcoot.blogspot.com/2008/10/med...rexler-g-r.html

 

Again this is not my site. This show both getting the tiffany cross. Whether factual are not I am not sure. Hope this helps.

4starchris

 

Thanks Chris, I stumbled on it after asking the question.

[emccomas]

In my research I have been specifically looking for photo evidence, undisputable but not always available. One thing that just became obvious, yes I am slow sometimes :emba0005: , via the comments of anther post about Balch receiving the Tiffany. When I looked at the photo of Balch receiving the medal you can not really see the medal BUT it is being pinned on his chest! The Star was NEVER pinned on the chest and was ALWAYS worn around the neck. The Tiffany, like the Army version, had the option to be worn around the neck. Anyway just thought I would point this out thinking others may be just as slow as me on this point.

Also, just looking over the grave marker's of these hero’s and found it interesting that only Boone (above the stars, faint) and Petty (just below the hat) have the image of the Tiffany on the grave markers. I remember seeing a plaque honoring one of the medical / dental recipients at the front of a hospital building in his name but can not remember or find that one at the moment. :think:

Lastly I thought it would be a nice idea, as with the Numbered MC Expeditionary Medal list on the forum, to start a list of Tiffany’s and the known locations. If anything I thought it would be nice to know where I/we could go to view and photograph one of this works of art. Just copy, edit / update the location in (parentheses), and repast your additions to the list.

(Name of Museum, Private Collection, Families possession etc…)

Graves, Ora

Ingram, Osmond Kelley

Cann, Tedford Harris

Upton, Frank Monroe

Lyle, Alexander Gordon

Sullivan, Daniel Augustus Joseph

Izac, Edward Victor Michael

Osborne, Weedon E. (FAKE, Navy Museum D.C.)

Hoffman, Charles F. AKA: Ernest August Janson

Petty, Orlando Henderson

Cukela, Louis

Kicak, Matej

Boone, Joel Thompson

Balch, John Henry

Hammann, Charles Hazeltine

Hayden, David Ephraim

Kelly, John Joseph

Pruitt, John Henry

Talbot, Ralph

Siegel, John Otto (CA Museum, Not displayed)

Button, William Robert

Hanneken, Herman Henry

Madison, James J.

Byrd, Richard Evelyn Jr.

Bennett, Floyd (NASM, D.C.)

Schilt, Christian Franklin

 

 

I am working on it..about a 1/3 of the way there at this point.

[emccomas]

OK, a couple of recently discovered photos (at least discovered by me)

 

The medals of John Balch, currently on display at the Navy Hospital Corpsman Hall of Honor, Bethesda Naval Hospital

 

 

A photo just emailed to me from VMI, showing Richard Byrd and Floyd Bennett receiving their Tiffany Crosses from President Coolidge

 

 

I understand that Richard Byrd's Tiffany was auctioned or sold in England around 1988. Anyone know anything about that?

[4STARCHRIS]

 

Pinned directly to the jacket and goes with your headstone.

4starchris

[4STARCHRIS]

 

Portrait photograph, taken circa 1919, showing him wearing the Medal of Honor (Tiffany Cross).

He received the medal for "exceptionally heroic service in a position of great responsibility" while serving as Commanding Officer of USS Ticonderoga (ID # 1958) on 30 September 1918, when she was sunk in combat with the German submarine U-152.

 

Highly unusal way of wearing the Tiffany Cross. But it is a Tiffany Cross.

4starchris

[4STARCHRIS]

 

4starchris

[4STARCHRIS]

4starchris

[4STARCHRIS]

 

Admiral Joel Boone, M.D.