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pre WW2 BAR belt


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In M.J.Brayley's book on US web gear he suggests that both assistants used the belt pictured by El Bibliotecario backed up with bandoliers.The gunner also armed with a pistol, the assistants with rifles

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In M.J.Brayley's book on US web gear he suggests that both assistants used the belt pictured by El Bibliotecario backed up with bandoliers.The gunner also armed with a pistol, the assistants with rifles

 

I think old Webcat was right. If the both assistants were equipped with teh same belt, why it's marked 2nd. It should have been marked simply "assistant", no 1st and no 2nd.

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craig_pickrall

Here is another WW1 era belt to kick around. It was modified by Avery in 1942 to have the smaller WW2 size buckle. You can see where the large WW1 buckle was removed.

 

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  • 5 months later...

I'm happy I recovered long time ago from old MCF the speech of Carter Rila about 1st assistant belt and now I've found that Word file I believed lost in my pluriformatted hard disk:

 

BAR Belts & Accessories

This is the 2d Assistant Rifleman's Belt. There was no first assistant pattern. The first assistant carried two bandoleers and wore the same belt as the rifleman.

It was once thought that the belt with all BAR pockets and pistol magazine pockets was the 1st assistant's belt. However, this notion was put paid to by the Ordnance Storage Catalog, 1919, Vol IV,which shows only two models, neither of which have the butt pocket.

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Here are views of the Rifleman's Belt, 1st and 2d pattern. The butt pocket proved unsatisfactory and the pattern was revised soon.

There are also a number of different conversions.

 

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Note this is not a single belt but two halves put together. The left half has the bound flaps, variant 1, while the right half has the more common V-shaped flaps cut from a single roll of purpose woven belting.

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Hello Guys

thanks for showing your nice belts made me dig mine out and take pics as well.

My riflemans belt

 

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Artu-

 

In the third sentence of Carter Rila's speech, you quote him as saying, "The first assistant carried two bandoleers and wore the same belt as the rifleman."

 

Could it be possible that he meant that the first assistant carried two BAR bandoleers and wore the same belt as an infantry rifleman (ten pocket for service rifle clips)?

 

Somebody was clearly expected to carry the BAR bandoleers, but I do not believe that the first assistant would have been forced to carry two BAR bandoleers AND a BAR magazine belt, and have had no weapon but a pistol which added nothing to his team or company's offensive firepower.

 

A point to be considered is that a fully loaded BAR magazine weighs one pound seven ounces. A BAR bandoleer with six magazines would thus weigh almost 10 pounds. The eight mags in the original automatic rifleman's belt would tip the scales at 13 and a half pounds, with the additional weight of a pistol and extra pistol mags to be added into the load!!. I think it very unlikely that anyone was expected to carry BOTH a mag belt and two bandoleers for BAR ammo.

 

In WWII, according to the "book", the assistant automatic rifleman in U.S. Marine Corps fire teams carried two BAR bandoleers and wore a standard rifle belt for his service rifle. The automatic rifleman wore a BAR mag belt, but NO bandoleers. Interstingly, it is stated that four of the assistant rifleman's twelve mags could have been shared with other members of the fire team, and the automatic rifleman's standard load was to be nine magazines....What was actually carried in combat no doubt varied from the theoretical, I'm sure!

 

I know this thread is about the original type BAR belts themselves, but who carried what is kind of an interesting question in my opinion.

 

Nice looking belts, gentlemen!! Thanks for sharing

 

Comments welcome.

 

Respectfully,

 

Terry ("Bagman")

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If I remember well, our french buddy Solcarlus owns a booklet of the period which explain more about BAR squad and he posted something about but I cannot remember the right forum.

BTW the gunner did carry only six mags being one pouch occupied by the leather box for spares. Anyway I wanted only point out that collectors are allowed to stop searching the first assistant belt simply because it doesn't exist. LOL

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Solcarlus sent me a pic of that page from "America's Munitions 1917-1919" Benedict CROWELL. At first sight also Mr Cromwell can be interpretate as he did the mistake to consider 1at assistant with his dedicate belt but he said simply that assistans had their "own" belt not necessarily dedicated.

He stated also both assistant bore also a couple of bandoleers each. Hope they would have been selected among very strong people.

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The round flap pockets may have been made for only a short time but they stayed in actual usage for a long time after. This is a WW2 Marine BAR man.

 

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wait..isn't the round flap item a bar bandoleer??? cause it seems that an actual bar belt is underneath..

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  • 7 years later...
749th tank battalion

I know this is following some time after this original thread started but I figured to add this US Ordnance plan/drawing I found online of what many describe or label as the "1st assistant" BAR belt.

As seen, it has the WWI long style belt buckle, smaller equipment attaching lower eyelets and 2 1/2" extender belt. The plans show a 5th BAR magazine pocket attached where the metal butt cup would once be, yet it retains the .45 pistol magazine pouch.

The drawing is dated from 1929. I believe the Ordnance dept. was upgrading BAR belts to hold a 5th pocket on this belt (and perhaps around the same time adding a 5th and 6th pocket to the 2nd asst belts, in lieu of the .30-06 stripper clip pockets ?) To better reflect battlefield tactics changing from the WWI walking hip fire tactic.

it's titled as "Magazine, belt, M1" and would simply act as the new auto rifleman's belt....yes ?

 

this is before the BAR itself went through a modernization upgrade in the late 1930's and 1940 when it became the 1918A2..and before the advent of the M1937 BAR belt

 

--Andrewpost-163184-0-05377300-1565035345_thumb.jpg

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There was another thread regarding the belts and I provided comments regarding what type belts were originally carried. I have the notes and a draft FM for the m1918 as well as BAR tests from a SGT who was assigned to WRA during WW1. Id have to look thru them again to see what he said but you might find the comments in the other thread.

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