British-made aircrew wing....or not?!

[Sabrejet]

Gentlemen, I’d like a second opinion on this British pattern aircrew wing, ie, is it legit...or not? I’ve photographed it with two other definitely legit British-made wings by way of comparison. All are 3” size...it’s the photographic perspective which makes them look different sizes. All are unmarked which is not uncommon with many British-made wings. All have very fine feather detail of the style commonly referred to as “Ludlow pattern”.

 

However, what perplexes me is the American style pin/roller catch arrangement on the aircrew wing. The basic wing is an Observers’ with the aircrew device being an add-on. It displays very well and looks great pinned to a uniform...but I’m not too sure. What do you think? Thank you!

 

 

[Sabrejet]

[Sabrejet]

[Sabrejet]

[John Cooper]

Ian after a quick look from the small screen ( using my phone) my first thought is that either the maker decided to use "American" style fittings or the new owner did.

 

John

[pconrad02]

I have seen this pattern before, and I believe them to be CBI rather than Brit, thus the American style fittings

 

 

 

Paul

[Sabrejet]

Thanks John and Paul (btw..where are Ringo and George?! ) Paul, the CBI theory is an interesting one...hadn't occurred to me :think:

 

John..I did wonder if the US style pin was retro-fitted but I can't see any marks where an original pin might have been attached...unless the replacement was positioned directly on them?!

 

Ian :thumbsup:

[John Cooper]

Ian - Paul has an interesting point although I have always felt this "style" to be English... but my gut feeling may be in error. Is it possible to have you post larger photo's so I can see it better?

 

 

BTW here is an aircrew I have that I consider English with the same type styling of the feathers.

 

 

Cheers

 

John

 

[pfrost]

Ian - Paul has an interesting point although I have always felt this "style" to be English... but my gut feeling may be in error. Is it possible to have you post larger photo's so I can see it better?

BTW here is an aircrew I have that I consider English with the same type styling of the feathers.

Cheers

 

John

 

 

I suspect that these are actually English-made wings, just not of the era you think they are. More than likely, they were made in the 50's or 60's (and perhaps even later than that). An English friend of mine who collects USAF and NATO related stuff has informed me that Gaunt and Fermin seemed to be making USAF insignia up until the present. I believe that a number of years ago, JR Gaunt was actually bought be Fermin (or vise a versa). In any case, I suspect that these are not WWII vintage wings, are are rather more modern that that, thus explaining the "US style" pin and hinge as opposed to the "British style" pins of WWII.

 

Just my thoughts.

Patrick

[Sabrejet]

Ian - Paul has an interesting point although I have always felt this "style" to be English... but my gut feeling may be in error. Is it possible to have you post larger photo's so I can see it better?

BTW here is an aircrew I have that I consider English with the same type styling of the feathers.

Cheers

 

John

 

 

Hi John. Your wing appears to have that "brassy" hue I was referring to in the other wings thread I posted at the weekend!

 

Ian

[MikeK]

I suspect that these are actually English-made wings, just not of the era you think they are. More than likely, they were made in the 50's or 60's (and perhaps even later than that). An English friend of mine who collects USAF and NATO related stuff has informed me that Gaunt and Fermin seemed to be making USAF insignia up until the present. I believe that a number of years ago, JR Gaunt was actually bought be Fermin (or vise a versa). In any case, I suspect that these are not WWII vintage wings, are are rather more modern that that, thus explaining the "US style" pin and hinge as opposed to the "British style" pins of WWII.

 

Just my thoughts.

Patrick

 

 

Hi Patrick,

 

Could you confirm you are talking about the wings in Post#1 & #4, rather than John's wing in Post#8? I've seen the latter come in a group with some nice British made AF patches.

 

Your info above made me think of the attached Pilot's Wing, which I've always been unsure about (it just does not "feel" right) and can probably now put into the post-war (probably restrike) basket.

 

Regards

Mike

[Sabrejet]

I suspect that these are actually English-made wings, just not of the era you think they are. More than likely, they were made in the 50's or 60's (and perhaps even later than that). An English friend of mine who collects USAF and NATO related stuff has informed me that Gaunt and Fermin seemed to be making USAF insignia up until the present. I believe that a number of years ago, JR Gaunt was actually bought be Fermin (or vise a versa). In any case, I suspect that these are not WWII vintage wings, are are rather more modern that that, thus explaining the "US style" pin and hinge as opposed to the "British style" pins of WWII.

 

Just my thoughts.

Patrick

 

I must say I've never heard that or knowingly encountered any such wings in all my years of collecting...and being in the UK I'm probably best placed to turn up such things in insignia collecting circles. In my experience, Gaunt / Firmin wings always bear the maker's hallmark. In the more relaxed post-war era, I can't believe they'd produce un-marked "generic" wings? Just my 2p's worth!

[MikeK]

The following quote is from another forum by a British cap badge collector who seemed to know what he was talking about;

 

"...Gaunt was taken over by Firmin & Sons a number of years ago, who sold off a lot of the old Gaunt dies for scrap value. Sadly many of these dies have been used to produce the large number of fakes that we see on the market. Some of the better fakes have been produced by Firmins themselves, using Gaunt dies on their presses...."

 

Note that although he was talking about british cap bagdes the info can probably be applied to US wings. I've definitely read it applies to pilot's wings Gaunt produced during WW2 for active RAF flyers from occupied countries (eg Polish pilots). I've read elsewhere the takeover happened in the 70s (with debate as to whether it was possibly 60s or 50s).

 

Regards

Mike

[Sabrejet]

The following quote is from another forum by a British cap badge collector who seemed to know what he was talking about;

 

"...Gaunt was taken over by Firmin & Sons a number of years ago, who sold off a lot of the old Gaunt dies for scrap value. Sadly many of these dies have been used to produce the large number of fakes that we see on the market. Some of the better fakes have been produced by Firmins themselves, using Gaunt dies on their presses...."

 

Note that although he was talking about british cap bagdes the info can probably be applied to US wings. I've definitely read it applies to pilot's wings Gaunt produced during WW2 for active RAF flyers from occupied countries (eg Polish pilots). I've read elsewhere the takeover happened in the 70s (with debate as to whether it was possibly 60s or 50s).

 

Regards

Mike

 

 

Ahh...now if we're talking about collectors' re-strikes then maybe so? That said, back in the mid 80s they re-activated all of the old Meyer wing dies and produced all of the wing variants again. I bought one of each at the time...not of WW2 vintage of course, but otherwise perfect hallmarked examples and very collectable in their own right. Sadly, as we know, fake wings abound. A collectors' re-strike is one thing, but something made to deceive is another. Then there's that "grey area" whereby an honest re-strike could easily be passed off as an original to an unsuspecting collector. Such are the joys and pitfalls of collecting!!

[USARV72]

Hey guys,

What is your opinions on these? Came in a small ATC grouping. Have been told they were English and CBI????? No mark.

[USARV72]

Hey guys,

What is your opinions on these? Came in a small ATC grouping. Have been told they were English and CBI????? No mark.

[Sabrejet]

Personally, I'd say they were British-made on the basis of examples which I have myself or have seen elsewhere. Below is one of my aircrew wings which, by consensus on the forum, were deemed to be a CBI-made example. That figured because it was on uniform with CBI patches!

 

 

[B-17Guy]

Hello Ian,

Here is a pilot wing I have had for about ten years, that appears to be the same as the middle wing in your

original posting.

It has no hallmarks, and I feel it is WWII English made. A few wing collecting friends have seen the wing and agreed.

Personally, I have never heard of US wings being made in England after WWII, just left over stock being sold for years.

It would be interesting to ask USAF pilots who were stationed in England in the Cold War era, if they ever bought,

or had seen US wings for sale in London.

 

Best, John

[Sabrejet]

Hello John...me neither..until today! As you say, yours looks very similar to mine, but a lot brighter! Mine is evidently plated brass as it has that worn, brassy patina, as indeed does the aircrew wing posted above by John Cooper. I actually instigated a thread about brass-based wings at the weekend but unfortunately it hasn't taken off! (pun intended)

 

Ian :thumbsup:

[pfrost]

I was referring to the original wing in post #1 (and in post 11, for that matter). I suspect that these are neither restrikes or fakes intended for the collector's market. Instead, I believe that they are simply wings that were made later for NATO or USAF personnel that were stationed in England.

 

A number of years ago, I bought an identical set of command pilot wings (in the same gray metal with the US Style pin) out of a garage sale here in Los Angeles. The family told me that their father had not served in WWII, but had been stationed in the UK and Europe in the late 60's early 70's. Amongst the normal USAF wings were a pair in the same pattern as posts 1 and 11, and I am pretty sure he more than likely picked them up when he was over there at that time.

 

I see that Firmin and Son is still in business, and I see that you can go the their webpage and order stuff on line. I would think that it is likely (but am not sure) that someone could special order NATO or USAF-type insignia.

 

I also know that there is a (sadly shinking but still active) number of WWII 8th AAF vets that still go to England for reunions every year or so. Our family friend used to go before he died, and he told me that frequently people would buy commemorative items (including wings, patches and the like).

 

So, I just don't think that these are fake or restrikes (in the sense of what collectors see as restrikes) but simply wings that were made post-WII.

 

Patrick

[B-17Guy]

Thanks Patrick, great information about the items you picked up in LA.

I used to fly with a few pilot's from the Cold War era, but most of them have retired.

Maybe I can dig up some more info.

 

Best, John

[pfrost]

Hey John,

 

I also once had a nice USAF uniform to a guy who flew F111s in the 70's out of England (I want to say he was stationed in RAF Mildenhall, but I am not sure that is correct). The uniform was made USAF blue material but had an English tailor-made label and had nice bullion insignia (including pilot wings). I was assured by "experts" that his insignia was Japanese or Korean-made, but he never served in the far east. My feeling was that it was all English-made.

 

It was my belief at the time that he had the uniform custom-made in the UK (including the bullion) and likely cost him an arm and a leg. The bullion insignia were very nice and if they hadn't been directly embroidered on the USAF blue material, they would have passed for WWII vintage bullion. I had evil thoughts of cutting the bullion off the uniform, but eventually sold the whole thing so another collector (I can't keep everything!) untampered with. The point is, I would be pretty sure that USAF personnel stationed in England could, if they so wanted, get locally made uniforms and insignia--even today.

 

Patrick

[John Cooper]

Hey guys,

What is your opinions on these? Came in a small ATC grouping. Have been told they were English and CBI????? No mark.

 

 

Interesting to say the least in that the wing is almost exactly the same I the one I posted but it appears the shoulders are different. Additionally yours appears to be in much better condition. My has lost most of the silver plate... I wonder if yours is brass based as well?

 

 

I would like to hear more about the English and CBI... is there any more info?

 

Cheers

 

John

[John Cooper]

Patrick - very interesting point on the post war production as it would explain the use the what most would consider the typical fitting. I think some research into the time frame by looking at photos from the post war ear into the 1950s may provide a clue. Ian are you interested? If so you may be able to contact the person @ this link who has a related interest.

 

http://www.unitedkingdomgenealogy.com/thread-160.html

 

Additionally sorry for not posting on yout "brass" wings section as I was focused on this one Anyway Joe W once told be the reason English wings are brass is becuase of the fact the pound was based on sterling. I have never really thought much more about it but maybe you can enlighten me?

 

Cheers

John

[Sabrejet]

Patrick - very interesting point on the post war production as it would explain the use the what most would consider the typical fitting. I think some research into the time frame by looking at photos from the post war ear into the 1950s may provide a clue. Ian are you interested? If so you may be able to contact the person @ this link who has a related interest.

 

http://www.unitedkingdomgenealogy.com/thread-160.html

 

Additionally sorry for not posting on yout "brass" wings section as I was focused on this one Anyway Joe W once told be the reason English wings are brass is becuase of the fact the pound was based on sterling. I have never really thought much more about it but maybe you can enlighten me?

 

Cheers

John

 

The term "Sterling" in relation to the UK pound is purely historical. Its roots date back to Anglo-Saxon times when silver-based coins known as "sterlings"* were minted... (*sterling being a corruption of the ancient Anglo-Saxon name) British currency, just like the USD, is backed by gold reserves...not silver!

 

Ian