0811gysgt Posted July 29, 2011 Share #1 Posted July 29, 2011 This is the first time I have ever heard of this billet and the first time that I have ever seen this type of chevron. Has anyone ever heard of this or seen this type of USMC Chevron? Both pieces of insignia were linked to the same Marine by the seller. The chevron alone sold on Ebay for $400; I believe the other aviation insignia sold for $300. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0811gysgt Posted July 29, 2011 Author Share #2 Posted July 29, 2011 Reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0811gysgt Posted July 29, 2011 Author Share #3 Posted July 29, 2011 Close up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason G Posted July 29, 2011 Share #4 Posted July 29, 2011 Good gravy! I've never seen one of them. Very cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teufelhunde.ret Posted July 30, 2011 Share #5 Posted July 30, 2011 I'm glad you posted this one.... I'm very, VERY dubious about its origins and why it was created (and it does look created in my eyes). There are simply no historical references to any such "Sgt. Maj." of Marine Aviation. Having plowed thru a good many aviation muster rolls of the period, I've never seen a Sgt.Maj. attached to any of these Companies, here is an example from 1919, January, taken from the Marine Aviation Detachment, Marine Flying Field, Miami, Florida. I never seen a Sgt. Maj. attached to any Aviation unit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason G Posted July 30, 2011 Share #6 Posted July 30, 2011 Are you thinking a modern repro or fantasy thing then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teufelhunde.ret Posted July 30, 2011 Share #7 Posted July 30, 2011 Are you thinking a modern repro or fantasy thing then? ...simply cannot tell, hopefully someone can tell if its an original or modern day repro chevon for us :think: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Ragan Posted July 30, 2011 Share #8 Posted July 30, 2011 Sergeants Major were regimental grade NCO's in those days and as far as I know the Marines didn't have an organization at that level for aviation back when those chevrons were used. I too think this is a fantasy piece... neat looking, but just not real. JMHO :think: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted July 30, 2011 Share #9 Posted July 30, 2011 Does anyone have a USMC chevron such as this with a different device in the center (such as paymaster)that they could post front and reverse photos of? This one looks quite convincing. It might help to do a close side-by-side with a chevron that is accepted as original. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin B. Posted August 1, 2011 Share #10 Posted August 1, 2011 I don't have any photos of the reverse side of legit chevrons, but the paymaster sergeant, drum major and second leader chevrons were done entirely on one piece of scarlet backing cloth, while these have one backing for the stripes and another added piece for the center device. Also, even through WW2 aviation NCOs were "staff" with ties instead of rockers. I'd require a lot of provenance to pay $400 for that. --Justin B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel griffin Posted August 1, 2011 Share #11 Posted August 1, 2011 They are such high quality embroidery work, maybe they were a manufacturer's sample. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted August 1, 2011 Share #12 Posted August 1, 2011 Do you have a link to the seller or to the auction??? I ask as there was one ebay seller inparticular from Missouri who was/is selling a lot of old and odd USMC chevrons and he seems to have a supply of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hudson Posted August 1, 2011 Share #13 Posted August 1, 2011 Isn't that Master Sergeant chevrons? That is the Navy Aviation Machinists Mate rating mark in the center. There is a NAVAL HISTORICAL CENTER article at http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/NHC/books/.../navy_marks.htm and it includes this info: "Two documents and the memories of one Marine veteran address the issue of authorization. A letter dated November 14, 1941 from Gemsco, Inc. to Marine Corps Headquarters cited requests received for four aviation marks and sought specifications if they had been approved (Exhibit A). The response stated simply, "Such insignia is not used in the Marine Corps." (Ex. . The second document is from Leatherneck magazine, Pacific Edition, June 1944 (Ex. C). In the "Question Box" column, the writer asked, "Is there any authorization for wearing of Navy striker's badges [sic] by Marines...?" The response, "We are unable to find any authorization for this in Uniform Regulations." Further evidence of questionable authorization for these marks worn by Marines comes from Marine veteran James Bernard through two separate incidents. While in transit from the Naval Electronics Center, Chicago to Camp Lejeune for Radar School, he visited a military supply store in Washington, D. C. because "I had seen a few patches on Marines [and] we wanted to know about this new uniform piece." At the shop "...there were many [Navy insignia] on display. One in Marine green and red for about any classification that possibly could apply to us Marines. The person we talked to was evasive but did finally say that they were not approved." Marine Bernard goes on to describe the second incident. "Shortly after our arrival at Camp Lejeune we...fell out for inspection. Actually the formation was held primarily so the C. O. could speak to us about this patch." The presence of a Marine in formation wearing a mark served as an example "...for him to accentuate that these insignia were not part of our uniform and would be dealt with severely."2 These events took place in May 1944 and, along with the pre-war Gemsco inquiry, reinforces the notion that many, if not all, of these insignia were truly unauthorized. We could question why manufacturers would produce insignia for which there was no authorization except that similar examples abound." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin B. Posted August 1, 2011 Share #14 Posted August 1, 2011 Isn't that Master Sergeant chevrons? Master Sergeant wasn't a Marine grade till after WW2, but the wide dress chevrons went out in 1922. --Justin B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMaddoxUSMC Posted March 4, 2016 Share #15 Posted March 4, 2016 Perhaps it was an uncut 1921 USN Aviation Machinists Mate rate that a Marine got his hands on and cut to fit inside the SgtMaj chevron? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMaddoxUSMC Posted August 22, 2016 Share #16 Posted August 22, 2016 I don't have any photos of the reverse side of legit chevrons, but the paymaster sergeant, drum major and second leader chevrons were done entirely on one piece of scarlet backing cloth, while these have one backing for the stripes and another added piece for the center device. Also, even through WW2 aviation NCOs were "staff" with ties instead of rockers. I'd require a lot of provenance to pay $400 for that. --Justin B. Justin, Other than the uniform plates from the 1912 regulations, do you have any other images of either the Drum Major or 2nd Leader chevrons? I have seen the Paymaster Sgt (obviously) I would love to see some clear shots of those two band chevrons though! I doubt I will ever get my hands on either of those ranks (there were prob just a handful made to begin with) S/F -Maddox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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