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divisional shoulder patch wear in 20s-30s.


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#1 patches

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 09:43 PM

I once saw and held in hand a M1926 Class A tunic of the late 20s, early 30s, (It had no tags, size or otherwise),it had the 7th division patch on it, and the 3rd infantry strap, Corproral stripes, (No collar Discs). I am aware that the 3rd INF was assigned to the 7th DIV, in the 20s and 30s, but why the patch ? I know that in the post World War period only three divisions where active 1st-3rd division,with the 7th not being reactivated till july 1940, and i gather that all the other regular regiments where assigned to the inactive divisions. As these where paper strenght formations, they would not be conducting any kind of training or even to my mind have a commanding general or staffs. So did the regiment of Infantry and for that matter the other elements that where allocated on paper to these divisions, wear those patches of those divisions ireguardless of the fact that none of these elements would ever train together as a complete organazation. We are all aware of divisonal patches and corps patches where made in the post world war period, but to what extent where they worn ? the same would apply to those divisions of the old national army, now redisignated as reserve divisions.

#2 kiaiokalewa

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 11:30 AM

I once saw and held in hand a M1926 Class A tunic of the late 20s, early 30s, (It had no tags, size or otherwise),it had the 7th division patch on it, and the 3rd infantry strap, Corproral stripes, (No collar Discs). I am aware that the 3rd INF was assigned to the 7th DIV, in the 20s and 30s, but why the patch ? I know that in the post World War period only three divisions where active 1st-3rd division,with the 7th not being reactivated till july 1940, and i gather that all the other regular regiments where assigned to the inactive divisions. As these where paper strenght formations, they would not be conducting any kind of training or even to my mind have a commanding general or staffs. So did the regiment of Infantry and for that matter the other elements that where allocated on paper to these divisions, wear those patches of those divisions ireguardless of the fact that none of these elements would ever train together as a complete organazation. We are all aware of divisonal patches and corps patches where made in the post world war period, but to what extent where they worn ? the same would apply to those divisions of the old national army, now redisignated as reserve divisions.


Aloha, You can't forget the biggest one of them all the Hawaiian Division and the there was also the Philippine Division where their regiments were full to the gills with troops. CONUS was as you point out in sad shape after the demobilization of Army. It seemed everything was either grossly under strenghted or in cadre status. The Organized Reserve Div did have annual training camps mustering whatever units fell under their respective organizations. After that no large troop activity would occur for roughly ten months. Some of these units were involved in university ROTC programs and staffed them with troops from Hq, Hq. Tp., Co., etc... to form small cadres at these institutions. This would be one placs where these units would were their divisional SSI, numbered collar brass, and unit DI if they had them. In the collection I have a 76th,79th,98th,99th,101st Div, & 63rd Cav. Div, XXI Corps tunic that all have the classic diecut melton wool constructed SSI, branch devices and some with ribbons, overseas stripes, numbered brass and DIs. I'm not 100% certain if this was the same thing that was occurring with the Regular Army and National Guard Divisions but I suspect it was to a certain degree.

Edited by kiaiokalewa, 18 July 2011 - 11:36 AM.


#3 everforward

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 02:52 PM

In terms of what the National Guard was doing circa 1930 (VA National Guard specifically), the evidence would indicate that no SSI was worn during this time.

I just received a yearbook of the 1st Virginia Infantry from 1931.....a little background....

....At this time, the 1st Va. Infantry was the Eastern half of the Virginia National Guard, the 116th IR (116th Va. Infantry at the time) was the western and southern half. These two regiments formed the 91st Infantry Brigade, 29th Infantry Division. The 1st Rgt. was part of the 116th in WW1. Anyhoo--

Throughout this yearbook I can see a variety of uniforms being worn, shots of class-A service coats of both Officers, NCOs and EM, and none show any SSI whatsoever. This would change by the mid-late 1930s though. The 29th SSI would be back on the uniform in both regiments.

#4 patches

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:53 PM

Aloha, You can't forget the biggest one of them all the Hawaiian Division and the there was also the Philippine Division where their regiments were full to the gills with troops. CONUS was as you point out in sad shape after the demobilization of Army. It seemed everything was either grossly under strenghted or in cadre status. The Organized Reserve Div did have annual training camps mustering whatever units fell under their respective organizations. After that no large troop activity would occur for roughly ten months. Some of these units were involved in university ROTC programs and staffed them with troops from Hq, Hq. Tp., Co., etc... to form small cadres at these institutions. This would be one placs where these units would were their divisional SSI, numbered collar brass, and unit DI if they had them. In the collection I have a 76th,79th,98th,99th,101st Div, & 63rd Cav. Div, XXI Corps tunic that all have the classic diecut melton wool constructed SSI, branch devices and some with ribbons, overseas stripes, numbered brass and DIs. I'm not 100% certain if this was the same thing that was occurring with the Regular Army and National Guard Divisions but I suspect it was to a certain degree.


Thank's,my fiend, i was aware of those two overseas division, we know that they would be wearing their patches.As far as the regular units of the army, there where at full strenght or at least near to it. My original question still stands, Why would a soldier wear a patch of a inactive division that his unit was assigned to only on paper, and in realty have no real affilation to it, and would not be under any direct command and control of this division. Your info on the reserve division was interresting, it makes perfect sense, as the Reserve officer training programe= ROTC did fall under the auspices of the reserve, and it would explane the wear of those reserve divisional patches, so i regards to the reserve divisions, that at least answers part of the question, onto the regulars. I know that some members will site uniforms that they have seen or own, but i too have seen one, (that 7th div one i led the topic of with), and this will of course be welcomed and helpful,but also i would like the reasons WHY it was worn,and how wide spead it was worn not just with in a particular unit but army wide. I know there are members who may have access to more info in regards to the regular army, and have more knowelge on this subject then i do at the moment.

Edited by patches, 18 July 2011 - 07:56 PM.


#5 kiaiokalewa

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 10:20 PM

Aloha, You can't forget the biggest one of them all the Hawaiian Division and the there was also the Philippine Division where their regiments were full to the gills with troops. CONUS was as you point out in sad shape after the demobilization of Army. It seemed everything was either grossly under strenghted or in cadre status. The Organized Reserve Div did have annual training camps mustering whatever units fell under their respective organizations. After that no large troop activity would occur for roughly ten months. Some of these units were involved in university ROTC programs and staffed them with troops from Hq, Hq. Tp., Co., etc... to form small cadres at these institutions. This would be one placs where these units would were their divisional SSI, numbered collar brass, and unit DI if they had them. In the collection I have a 76th,79th,98th,99th,101st Div, & 63rd Cav. Div, XXI Corps tunic that all have the classic diecut melton wool constructed SSI, branch devices and some with ribbons, overseas stripes, numbered brass and DIs. I'm not 100% certain if this was the same thing that was occurring with the Regular Army and National Guard Divisions but I suspect it was to a certain degree.



The Organized Reserve Divisions also conducted training at the CMTC. During the 1930's HQ Staff and its reserve officers participated in the Army and Corps Area Command Post exercises. This involved Regular Army, National Guard, and Organized Reserve units in combined training exercises. This would be another reason you'll find O.R. officers tunics w/their respective divisional SSI sewn in place during this time frame.

It had been brought to my attention that the 4th through the 9th Divisions were partly in-activated. Theses five divisions were very much in the same category as the Organize Reserve division running in cadre status. Finding an inter-war officer tunics with 7th Division patch on it or any of the other four division in this group would not be bogus rather it follows what was going on throughout the bare-boned Army of the 1920's and 30's.

#6 patches

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 09:15 AM

The Organized Reserve Divisions also conducted training at the CMTC. During the 1930's HQ Staff and its reserve officers participated in the Army and Corps Area Command Post exercises. This involved Regular Army, National Guard, and Organized Reserve units in combined training exercises. This would be another reason you'll find O.R. officers tunics w/their respective divisional SSI sewn in place during this time frame.

It had been brought to my attention that the 4th through the 9th Divisions were partly in-activated. Theses five divisions were very much in the same category as the Organize Reserve division running in cadre status. Finding an inter-war officer tunics with 7th Division patch on it or any of the other four division in this group would not be bogus rather it follows what was going on throughout the bare-boned Army of the 1920's and 30's.


Thanks for the info, i still don't know if these divisions had a CO or staff,a cadre here might be consisting of a small group of officer and men stationed in washington at the war department, i have never seen a listing of posts where any of these divisions would be stationed, they must have been assiged to a geograhical location on paper,and in the event of reactivation, would form up in a post located there. The regular inf regts of the 20s and 30s on the other hand where not cadre units,some of the 38 active regular regts of inf did have only 2 of their 3 battalions, i believe 14 regts had just 2 battalions. My conclusion is that these regular regts and associated units Ie arty etc where assiged on paper to these inactive divs, and would from time to time wear the patches if only on a temporary basis,ordered by a commander, perhaps regimental when the mood hit him , there is no other real explanation here.If there are forum members who have 20s -30s studio portrats of officers and men or informal or candid phots of these divisional patches being worn by all means put them up here.You guys meaning alot of other memembers have a knack for rooting out and spoting these kinds of things.

#7 pac_bob

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 10:37 PM

Thanks for the info, i still don't know if these divisions had a CO or staff,a cadre here might be consisting of a small group of officer and men stationed in washington at the war department, i have never seen a listing of posts where any of these divisions would be stationed, they must have been assiged to a geograhical location on paper,and in the event of reactivation, would form up in a post located there. The regular inf regts of the 20s and 30s on the other hand where not cadre units,some of the 38 active regular regts of inf did have only 2 of their 3 battalions, i believe 14 regts had just 2 battalions. My conclusion is that these regular regts and associated units Ie arty etc where assiged on paper to these inactive divs, and would from time to time wear the patches if only on a temporary basis,ordered by a commander, perhaps regimental when the mood hit him , there is no other real explanation here.If there are forum members who have 20s -30s studio portrats of officers and men or informal or candid phots of these divisional patches being worn by all means put them up here.You guys meaning alot of other memembers have a knack for rooting out and spoting these kinds of things.


During the interwar period, one infantry brigade of the 4th - 9th Divisions were active and wore the assigned division patches, even though most of the regiments had at most two active battalions at half strength. The RA order of battle was published every quarter in the Army List and Directory until the end of 1939. These are available in the older government depository libraries. The SF Public Library, for example has a full set of this publication, along with the Army Register (which has short histories of the RA units) and the National Guard Register (which has similar histories of the NG regiments and the NG order of battle).

Bob Capistrano

#8 patches

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 11:37 PM

During the interwar period, one infantry brigade of the 4th - 9th Divisions were active and wore the assigned division patches, even though most of the regiments had at most two active battalions at half strength. The RA order of battle was published every quarter in the Army List and Directory until the end of 1939. These are available in the older government depository libraries. The SF Public Library, for example has a full set of this publication, along with the Army Register (which has short histories of the RA units) and the National Guard Register (which has similar histories of the NG regiments and the NG order of battle).

Bob Capistrano


Thank's for the info, i of course don't have access to those books, do they say where these divisions where located, and since they had only a brigade, does that mean the other regiments that would be assigned to this paper division rotate in and out of the active brigade ? Still alot of questions here, for instanance, did these divisions have COs and staff ? but i guess the original question i asked about the divisional patches has been answered, thank's again.

#9 Wailuna

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 07:28 AM

...During the interwar period, one infantry brigade of the 4th - 9th Divisions were active and wore the assigned division patches, even though most of the regiments had at most two active battalions at half strength...


Co_B_17th_Inf_1931.jpg

Co. B, 17th Inf., 6th Division, at Ft. Crook, Nebr., ca. 1931.



#10 patches

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 08:55 PM


Co_B_17th_Inf_1931.jpg

Co. B, 17th Inf., 6th Division, at Ft. Crook, Nebr., ca. 1931.


Thank you sir, this is the exact type of info i was dying to see, proof positive that the patch was worn in the 20s and 30s. If any other members find any photos whether studio portraits or unit photos put them up here, i dont have the capability do do so, but other member sure do, maybe it will turn into a permenant topic, like those at the top of the page on the shoulder insignia forum, as i believe it is a important area in the history of u.s. army shoulder patches. This is a superb photo, i am struck by the extreme youth of some of them, i am always accustomed to see older men in the army of this period, also we see their unit crests on the lower lapels, don't you just dig a couple of those 15 to 20 year in service, buck Sergeants. Thanks wailuna. :twothumbup:

Edited by patches, 11 August 2011 - 08:57 PM.


#11 pac_bob

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:06 PM

Thank's for the info, i of course don't have access to those books, do they say where these divisions where located, and since they had only a brigade, does that mean the other regiments that would be assigned to this paper division rotate in and out of the active brigade ? Still alot of questions here, for instanance, did these divisions have COs and staff ? but i guess the original question i asked about the divisional patches has been answered, thank's again.


Yes, the Army List and Directory shows the geographic distribution of all Regular Army units. Occasionally you'll see a copy pop up on ebay. As to your other question, the other regiments assigned the division, along with the Bde HQ, were inactive between the wars, e.g., 32nd, 36th-37th, 39th-44th, 46th-56th, 58th-64th, and 68th Inf Rgts. The same was true in the other branches, with the 2nd and 3rd Cav Divs only partially inactive and the 15th-17th Cav Rgts and many FA Rgts inactive. Occasionally rgts were switched in and out of a division, but not often. The big shake-up came in 1939-40, when the square division was broken up and the Bde HQs disappeared.

Bob Capistrano

#12 patches

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:41 PM

Yes, the Army List and Directory shows the geographic distribution of all Regular Army units. Occasionally you'll see a copy pop up on ebay. As to your other question, the other regiments assigned the division, along with the Bde HQ, were inactive between the wars, e.g., 32nd, 36th-37th, 39th-44th, 46th-56th, 58th-64th, and 68th Inf Rgts. The same was true in the other branches, with the 2nd and 3rd Cav Divs only partially inactive and the 15th-17th Cav Rgts and many FA Rgts inactive. Occasionally rgts were switched in and out of a division, but not often. The big shake-up came in 1939-40, when the square division was broken up and the Bde HQs disappeared.

Bob Capistrano


Thanks, i would love to see those booklets.It is as you say, as at that time the fully reactivated divisions more or less had their regiments assigned to them that would basically become traditional to these divisions, at least till that restruture in 1983/84. The photo posted below is mavelous,it shows 6th div troops from the 17th infantry, here their at ft crook nebraska, and olddd army post. Do you have any to put up ?

#13 Wailuna

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 12:21 AM

20th_Inf._2nd_Div.jpg

Unidentified PFC, 20th Inf., 2nd Division, at Ft. Sam Houston (ca. 1926 - 27) or Ft. D.A. Russell, Wyo. (ca. 1927 - 29).



#14 patches

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 12:05 PM

20th_Inf._2nd_Div.jpg

Unidentified PFC, 20th Inf., 2nd Division, at Ft. Sam Houston (ca. 1926 - 27) or Ft. D.A. Russell, Wyo. (ca. 1927 - 29).

Another great photo, thanks, but i must point out that the photos to be posted would be of troops of the 4th through 9th divs,i as say this, as we do know that the 1st through 3rd divs where active during the period of 1919-1939/40 and would be wearing their patches. that one you posted with the 6th div troops was very interresting i,we would love to see more from from those numbered divisions if at all possiable. :thumbsup:

Edited by patches, 13 August 2011 - 12:06 PM.


#15 Wailuna

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 07:28 PM

Third Division recruit drill? Date and place of this scene are unknown but the Golden Gate International Exposition of 1939-1940 is one possibility. Third Division posted a provisional company from 30th Infantry (“San Francisco’s Own”) at the Exposition venue on Treasure Island in San Francisco Bay in 1939, where it was billeted at Camp Hunter Liggett (perhaps the tents shown behind the corporal). The “Treasure Island Company” in 1940 included troops from other Ninth Corps units as well as from 30th Infantry. The 1935-1936 California Pacific Exposition in San Diego is another possibility. Third Division sent a unit of some 164 30th Infantry soldiers and bandsmen to this event. (Thanks to Forum member Gregory who originally posted this image elsewhere on the Forum).

post_75_1178527510_1.jpg



#16 patches

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 08:18 PM

Third Division recruit drill? Date and place of this scene are unknown but the Golden Gate International Exposition of 1939-1940 is one possibility. Third Division posted a provisional company from 30th Infantry (“San Francisco’s Own”) at the Exposition venue on Treasure Island in San Francisco Bay in 1939, where it was billeted at Camp Hunter Liggett (perhaps the tents shown behind the corporal). The “Treasure Island Company” in 1940 included troops from other Ninth Corps units as well as from 30th Infantry. The 1935-1936 California Pacific Exposition in San Diego is another possibility. Third Division sent a unit of some 164 30th Infantry soldiers and bandsmen to this event. (Thanks to Forum member Gregory who originally posted this image elsewhere on the Forum).

post_75_1178527510_1.jpg

An unbelivable photo, this one from the 3rd div is alright to post as it is so unique, its is unbelivably risque for that time, you will note the girls are in very reviling swim suits, their belly buttons are showing.It was in the main a time of public modesty, even in hollywood the studios where starting to come under pressure to tone down some of the things they where doing.

#17 kiaiokalewa

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 08:27 PM

An unbelivable photo, this one from the 3rd div is alright to post as it is so unique, its is unbelivably risque for that time, you will note the girls are in very reviling swim suits, their belly buttons are showing.It was in the main a time of public modesty, even in hollywood the studios where starting to come under pressure to tone down some of the things they where doing.


It is also great to see evidence of divisional insignia being used on interwar helmets like the ladies are wearing. Let's see what else my surface from the photo vaults including at least now a 1st Div photo since we already have the 2nd and 3rd.

Edited by kiaiokalewa, 13 August 2011 - 08:29 PM.


#18 patches

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 10:17 PM

It is also great to see evidence of divisional insignia being used on interwar helmets like the ladies are wearing. Let's see what else my surface from the photo vaults including at least now a 1st Div photo since we already have the 2nd and 3rd.


Thats fine, but as i been saying it would be in keeping with spirt of this topic if photos of the inactive regular divisions and the 76 through 103rd divisions of the 20s and 30s could be posted. I will say that you and your father do have a knack for finding these old photos, although that 3rd division one he said was posted sometime ago, in another topic, still he was able to locate it and put it up. I would love to contribute some photos myself to this topic i started but i don't have the research tools at my disposel, in any event i do'nt think i know how to look for items but believe you me if i would come across any thing i will try to get the photo or a photo of the item and put it up, heck if i had a digtal camara i would be inclined to go in to the city(i live in queens and all native new yorkers who live in the outer boroughs call manhatten the CITY) and go to that vintage clothes store and take a photo of that 7th div 3rd inf late 20s early 30s tunic, the owner and any of the people who work there would certainly let me, as i am a long time customer, but as i don't and i know i can't borrow one , it will have to wait. I do want to close saying to you and your father to keep up the good work.

#19 Wailuna

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 01:12 AM

A composite band comprising members of several 2nd Division regimental bands, which was assembled on the occasion of the 10th annual American Legion convention in San Antonio in October, 1928.

2nd_Division_Composite_Band_ca._1928.jpg



#20 Wailuna

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 11:59 PM

Another 6th Division soldier (ca. 1930) with no station or unit captioned and the DI is indistinguishable (although it is probably an Infantry or Field Artillery regiment). No question about this soldier's division, however. Also of interest is that he appears to be wearing a standing collar coat converted to M-1926 lapel style.

post_1963_1263235551.jpg



#21 Wailuna

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 04:42 PM

...Another 6th Division soldier (ca. 1930) with no station or unit captioned and the DI is indistinguishable (although it is probably an Infantry or Field Artillery regiment)....

post_1963_1263235551_1_1.jpg

The soldier's unit has been identified as 2nd Infantry (approved July 17, 1936). Second Infantry was assigned to 12th Infantry Brigade, 6th Division, from March 24, 1923, until October 16, 1939, with 1st Battalion at Ft. Sheridan, Ill., 2nd Battalion at Ft. Wayne, Ind., and 3rd Bn. at Ft. Brady, Mich.

2nd_Inf_DI.jpg


Edited by Wailuna, 20 August 2011 - 04:45 PM.


#22 patches

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 12:30 AM

The soldier's unit has been identified as 2nd Infantry (approved July 17, 1936). Second Infantry was assigned to 12th Infantry Brigade, 6th Division, from March 24, 1923, until October 16, 1939, with 1st Battalion at Ft. Sheridan, Ill., 2nd Battalion at Ft. Wayne, Ind., and 3rd Bn. at Ft. Brady, Mich.

2nd_Inf_DI.jpg

Another fine photo, guy. Of interest is that this PVT is a WW veteran of either the 1st or 2nd division by virtue of the fourragere being worn, as neither the 2nd infantry nor the 6th division was entitled to wear the rope.

#23 Wailuna

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:59 AM

Here is the 5th Division SSI being worn by an officer at Ft. Brady, Mich., ca. October 1939 (possibly Lt. Col. Hayes Kromer, C.O. of 2nd Infantry). On October 16, 1939, 2nd Infantry was relieved from assignment to 6th Division and assigned to 5th Division, and the regiment was transferred its various stations in the Midwest to Ft. McClellan, Ala., on November 3, 1939.

2nd_Inf__5th_Div.jpg



#24 patches

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 08:33 AM

I remembered this older topic, and thought I should add another Pre War photo of an Inactive Divisions shoulder patch being worn, it is a Soldier around the mid 1930s of the 6th Infantry, 6th Division, we can just see the 6th Division patch, of interest is the use of a collar bar, something common enough in the pre war era, this man is one James Vancil, a pre war enlistee, joining up in sometime 1935, this picture was taken I gather in 1935 after his training with the 6th Infantry, as in those days recruits were trained by the units they were assigned to.

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#25 patches

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 11:30 AM

Found this great topic to add here, it started earlier that this one and I did make a quote on it about the same time I started this topic.

 

http://www.usmilitar...eserve-patches/


Edited by patches, 26 September 2013 - 11:51 AM.



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