USMC Dress Blues with Navy ratings insignia

[Bob Hudson]

Got this recently from the veteran's son: the father was in the Air Force, got out and, apparently much to his wife's dismay, enlisted in the Navy during the Vietnam war.

 

Now the very first thing is: KFC on the uniform's left sleeve?

 

 

Here's a picture from Veteran's Day 1995:

 

 

 

 

[RustyCanteen]

Now that's an interesting one!

[shrapneldude]

I guess if that was on a class "A" green coat, it wouldn't look nearly as out of place. FMF Corpsmen don't wear dress blues though, that's strictly a Marine Corps uniform. Maybe he got a little creative for a ball or Marine Corps League event after he got out? Looks cool though!

[Bob Hudson]

So, as the son tells it, the old man loved the Marines, but until I told him, he had no idea this was a Marine uniform with Navy insignia. My guess is that the old man had it made up for things like Veteran's Day. Corpsmen serving with the Marines could wear the green service uniforms with Navy insignia, but the regulations require them to wear Navy dress blue uniforms, no Marine blues.

 

This corpsman was estranged from his family for many years so the facts of his service are not clear. The son though, said his dad could take the adventures of six other people and make them his own, so the Bronze Star with V and the three Purple Hearts have to be taken with a grain of salt until or if someone comes across his records. The son does know that his father came home from straight from Vietnam to the hospital and at least one Purple Heart sounds credible. The jump wings and USMC Combat Aircrew Badge... well who knows?

 

Whatever the validity of the decorations, it's amazing the family held on to it, considering their relationship with this veteran. The son is out of work so he was really glad to get some money for it: I gave him my widows and orphans price, but I figure that if worse comes to worse and he turns out to be total poser, a size 46 USMC dress blues coat (with size 42 pants) is, even with the Navy insignia removed, fetches a nice price.

 

I have to say thought that as is, it's quite the curiosity piece: there is some truth in it, but of course the corpsman's insignia on USMC blues is fantasy, but it was his fantasy and it would be interesting to know the real events which inspired it. He was after all a combat corpsman in Vietnam, so Bronze Stars and multiple Purple Hearts are not out of the realm of possibilities.

 

He became blind at some point, which explains the stick he is holding in the photo.

 

 

I only wish he were still around so I could ask him direct, "What's up Doc?"

 

[History Man]

Great grouping you got there. :thumbsup: i really didnt understand the dress blues but i guess he could have gotten it made up for a VFW event or other veteran occasion again, great finds

 

Philip

[Bob Hudson]

Great grouping you got there. :thumbsup: i really didnt understand the dress blues but i guess he could have gotten it made up for a VFW event or other veteran occasion again, great finds

 

Philip

It certainly is unofficial. Here's a WWII Marine class A uniform from a corpsman: this one was official and worn on duty:

 

 

And here is a 1988-dated uniform worn by a Navy RP - Religious Program specialist - serving with the Marines.

 

[teufelhunde.ret]

...The son though, said his dad could take the adventures of six other people and make them his own

... I only wish he were still around so I could ask him direct, "What's up Doc?"

 

The "story" and the various ribbon rack arrangement's clearly do not match, there are so many conflicting things about these awards and period of "supposed" service... to begin with why are there Korean service ribbons on this "costume", if he started service with the Air Force. Perhaps someone will have more time than I do at the moment to breakdown all thats wrong here. This whole getup boarders on being poser, to hilarious and downright sad.

[shrapneldude]

The "story" and the various ribbon rack arrangement's clearly do not match, there are so many conflicting things about these awards and period of "supposed" service... to begin with why are there Korean service ribbons on this "costume", if he started service with the Air Force. Perhaps someone will have more time than I do at the moment to breakdown all thats wrong here. This whole getup boarders on being poser, to hilarious and downright sad.

 

You know, looking at the ribbons again, it does seem a little suspect. When did he serve in the Air Force? He's got FMF devices on his KW and VN medals, indicating tours with the Marines as a Navy Corpsman, so he'd have had to be in the Air Force prior to that. Problem is -- the USAF Commendation medal he's got didn't come out until 1958, and the USAF Longevity service ribbon started being awarded in 1957 for 4 years of service on active duty, so he'd have had to be in the Air Force at the very latest just after Korea to have been awarded that one.

 

Not that I'm an expert of any kind, and if my facts and assumptions are wrong, please correct me.

 

It's certainly plausible I guess that he served with the US Navy as a Corpsman in Korea with the FMF, came home, joined the Air Force in the late 50's, got out, and went back into the Navy and went to Vietnam as a FMF Corpsman again. Unlikely, but it could have happened. The question is DID it?

 

The USN/MC Para wings and Air Crew wings might be out of place as well, but I don't know. That would imply he was a corpsman with an Air Wing unit, which would've made it difficult for him to be in a position to earn the combat action ribbon, and a bronze star for ground combat right? This where I bow out because someone will know more about this than me, but would like to know.

 

 

*EDIT*

One less accusatory suggestion, after seeing the photo of him with the cane... if he was blind, how would he have known if the stuff was right or wrong? Is it possible, since he could not see, that a well-meaning member of a VFW or MCL type organization decided to help him assemble a uniform to wear at parades or functions. We all know, older veterans don't always follow the DoD regulations for their uniforms. Maybe someone did this up for him and made a few mistakes and didn't know any better.

[teufelhunde.ret]

You know, looking at the ribbons again, it does seem a little suspect.

 

Darn right, found some time to come back to this costume... here are a few other gaffs.

... No Star Devices on the Combat Aircrewman Badge?

... If as the story goes, got out of the A.F. and joined the Navy, where is the A.F. GCM?

... Why is wearing the Army version of the Presidential Unit Citation?

... The Republic of Vietnam Gallantry Cross with Gold star was awarded at "Corps", what it a Corpsman doing with it on? One rack shows the Gallantry Cross medal, which is an individual award, with a Gold Star while the other does not?

... One mini PH shows 3 Gold Stars, the other shows 2, whats up with that? Why no Star(s) on the full size?

... The ribbon order is mostly screwed up on both racks?

... Navy GCM with two stars - but he's wearing four hashmarks?

... And lastly which fries my butt - He's wearing the Eagle, Globe and Anchor BACK-WARDS!

 

This get-up is giving me a headache looking at it... :pinch: time for someone else to take over!

[canadian bacon]

may i be the first to point out that he has two purple heart ribbon bars with a silver star device and a gold star indicating not one,not two but seven awards and he only has two battle stars for korea and two for vietnam methinks that this is not 100% as it should be

 

oh and as for the airforce maybe he entered as a officer in 1956ish served for 4 years was discarged rejoined the navy just some food for thought

[Bob Hudson]

Well I just spoke with his son, who is more skeptical of his old man than any of us, but he says he did see the Bronze Star certificate and that the old man had three minor wounds in in Vietnam before being blinded in both eyes and going into a three-month long coma.

 

He said his father served in the Navy during the Korean War, got out, and then reenlisted in about 1957 or so. He was not in the Air Force but did apparently work briefly as a civilian employee of the USAF and also worked briefly as a police officer and private renta-cop. He was active in a couple of veteran's organizations and his son thinks his father's veteran's friends may have helped him put together the uniform, including unearned things based on his embellished stories.

 

I would say the medals/ribbons/badges are part BS, part true and part mistakes.

 

I have bought many uniforms direct from vets who had pinned things on them based on their recollection of how things were, but they were wrong. One guy Korean vet had two uniforms with totally different unit patches and different laundry marks but senthe swore they were both his, when clearly they were not. Another WWII vet got out a couple years after the war ended and he said they processed him out so fast that he never even got the ribbons he was entitled too. In the 1960's he finally got them from the Army and then proceeded to pin them on his old WWII uniform - above the right breast pocket! That's where they were when I bought it from him and he had no idea they were wrong. I bought another from a WWII vet which include the visor cap: turned out it was not his original, but rather something he bought from ebay

 

I bought this veteran's uniform from his widow. She kept the medals, but let me copy a photo from when he wore the uniform to receive an award from the French consul:

 

 

 

 

Now I must say that when it comes to errors, this corpsman's uniform takes the cake and, again, it'd be nice to know what's actually in the record. This guy probably was a hero of sorts, but that wasn't enough and he had to embellish the truth.

[houndhell]

A lot of supposition on this one.

 

A one-sided story, half truths and faded memories can really make the history of the individual all the more confusing, and it can make a legit combat veteran look very suspect.

 

Case in point: I worked as a bartender at an American Legion. A lot of guys were WW2, some Korean War ones, and a few Vietnam ones, with one Desert Storm vet. I asked one WW2 vet who had been at Bastogne, what medals he earned for his service. He said "well, my sister has 'em all, but I got a Silver Star and Bronze Star, and a Purple Heart for being shot twice." I asked what he did to earn them, and after a long pause (like he was thinking about it), he laughed and said "Well damn! It was cold as hell there and I don't remember!". The vet was on his first beer.

 

With regard to this fella in your post my thoughts are to first get his 201 file, and then you will know what he was entitled to (if the file is complete, which can be iffy sometimes) exactly.

 

Secondly, it does seem to me this uniform was made up for him by someone because he had lost his, and even active duty mil persons can get their award orders wrong on their fruit salad (Purple Heart after the ARCOM, not before it in precdence),along with their unform items (tabs on the wrong shoulder).

 

Third, his uniform is in the style of the old Corpsman uniforms, as previously noted, and could be an honest mistake (again by someone trying to help out, but with no core knowledge for the period of service).

 

Fourth, I have no doubt that he was wounded and cited for heroism. However, many times fellas would be cited for heroism with an IMPACT award by their higher command (shortly after an action took place), and the paperwork was never turned in, so that "oficially" the mil person was awarded the medal(s) and reflected in that person's OMPRF. This occurred a TON during the previous wars (read the book about Joe Ronnie Hooper) and many vets walked around with IMPACT awards, not knowing their file was not updated.

 

Lastly, and please I am not admonishing here at all, I would keep in mind that there are 2 sides to every story. His side and his family's side. Take it slow and steady when you speak to his son and try and weed out what's fact and what's emotion. Hard to do, but definitely possible.

 

My final thoughts on his awards would probably be:

 

1. 1 Bronze Star w/ V

2. 3 Purple Hearts

3. 1 Combat Action Ribbon

4. Korean War and Vietnam Service medals

5. 1 NDS with 1 bronze service star

6. 3 Navy GCM

 

Overall, I think it's a great research project.

[USMCRECON]

The jump wings and the 1st Recon pin seem to indicate some time in Recon.

 

Just FYI: While they probably wouldn't have a list of all individual combat awards, the 1st Recon Association as pretty good records of who served in the organization, some go back to the Korean War.

 

I'm wondering, since it had been determined that he really never served on active duty in the Air Force, where the AFCM and longevity ribbons came from. I'm also wondering about the aircrew wings on the wrong breast of the blouse. :think:

[USMCRECON]

I suppose I'm just being over-critical but there's a LOT of stuff about this that's inconsistent/confusing about what I'm looking at here; too much to itemize at the moment.

[Bob Hudson]

I suppose I'm just being over-critical but there's a LOT of stuff about this that's inconsistent/confusing about what I'm looking at here; too much to itemize at the moment.

 

So true:

 

The son is not fond of his father so he has nothing to gain by boosting so the old man, so I believe him when he said he's seen the Bronze Star certificate and that the Purple Heart(s) are legitimate. If I told him there was a bunch of BS insignia in there, he'd also be the first to say, "No surprise there." Of course the uniform with Navy insignia is clearly the vet's fantasy piece and i was told his VFW buddies even helped him put it together. I haven't decided yet whether I'm going to pull off the Navy insignia and sell the uniform: it's a hard-to-find very large size, but his large shadow box should stay intact as an interesting example of fact and fantasy.

[Jack's Son]

I know with militaria...... "never does not mean 'NEVER'".

BUT,This may be stretching it as much as it can possibly go!!

[USMCRECON]

The left loose ribbon rack has a Purple Heart with 3 gond stars. The one on the right appears to have one gold and one silver star....7 purple hearts including the ribbon itself?? On one rack there's a VCoG unit with a palm and a gold star....no device other than the skinny palm was auth on the unit VCoG. One of the mini VCoGs has a silver star on it and.............aarghhh; there's very little sense to be made from that mish mash. I'm getting a headache.

[KySoldier]

Just my guess, he's a wannabe war hero.

[Bob Hudson]

Just my guess, he's a wannabe war hero.

 

According to his son - who had no love for his father - the Bronze Star and Purple Hearts are legit, but much of the other stuff is total BS.