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1873 Trapdoor With Bayo


LostDutchman
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LostDutchman

Hey gang this is the other half to my firearms deal yesterday. There were some swords and such and if I get time I'll post those too.

I am more familiar with this weapon then the musket. I don't see anything wrong with it.

Enjoy!

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RustyCanteen

Ok, Not the biggest "trapdoor" expert,

 

It looks like your rec. is a 5 digit XX,XXX, but I can't make it out. If you open the breech block does the backside of the breech block look mostly flat or does it have a very pronounced curve?

 

The Lockplate is a good early one, the hammer is later but still ok given the long use of the 1873's. When you pull the hammer back does it make two or three clicks?

 

The rear sight dates to about 1879, so it has had a newer sight added at some point, not unusual. Your barrel has the VP proof so it was originally barreled or rebarreled after 1875.

 

The stock is the strange part, it has the flat (on the left side) of a musket stock, which leaves a couple options. One is that your stock is off of an 1866-1870 model "Trapdoor" and that someone swapped it out after the original stock broke. And two is that you might have a "bannerman" type rifle, basically most of the low numbers (under 50,000 on the serial) were ordered turned in in late 1879/1880. They were broken up for parts and the rejected parts were sold off by Springfield as scrap/surplus. The dealers would buy the parts and rebuild them and then sell them, that's why many "bannermans" have a mix of early and later parts. Can you make out anything stamped on the flat of the stock? Probably in an oval shape?

 

But your's (with the exception of the stock) may be original, need more info.

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LostDutchman

When I pull the hammer back I get 3 clicks.

I hops these pics answer your other questions. I don't see any noticeable stamps on the stock. That small area that looks like a square is the only thing.

post-9906-0-52173400-1406954236.jpg post-9906-0-97822800-1406954254.jpg post-9906-0-91030000-1406954275.jpg

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RustyCanteen

Ok, it looks like you have a good early 1874 rec. with a breech (called a high arch) block from about 1875-76 from what I can see. The lock plate is early and is correct for an 1874 rifle.

 

The barrel may have been replaced at some point in the 1870s (post 1875) to 1890s. The three clicks is a good sign too, it means your lockplate retains the original tumbler and was not upgraded to a 2 click.

 

I'm not sure what to say about the stock, it shouldn't be original to your rifle. Since that area on an 1873 should be more rounded and not flat like that.

 

Good news, most of your parts are 1875 and earlier, what some call a "Custer era" since it's pre 1876 (Little Big Horn).

 

I would very much suggest you visit www.trapdoorcollector.com, there are many experts (on their forum) there who can tell you more. Al Frasca or Dick Hosmer should be able to help you.

 

RC

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Good looking rifle!!

A few things I noticed. I need to mention I collected Springfield Armory trapdoors for about 20 years before moving into militaria. During this time I studied as much as I could about the manufacturing variations of the trapdoor through its entire production.

This particular variation of the trapdoor rifle I had in my collection years ago and is considered a bit of an anomaly.

Several things pointed out by other posters are very good points. Based on the photographs, which show some good details, I can make the following observations. This is going to be long.

-The stock. Yes, it is a Civil war musket stock, no doubt about that. The arsenal attempted to leveled the flats around the lockplate to conform more closely with the standard configuration, though did not put as much attention to the opposite side of the stock. The buttstock may be a bit larger then the standard Springfield 1873 design, though only by a very small amount, 1/8 to 3/16" overall dimensions, not very noticeable. The Inspector marks opposite the lockplate may be a combination of Civil War era and current marks, though it is unlikely there is the common "ESA" in the flattened oval, or the ESA with year marking, neither will it have the SWP and date in a box. There is a photo of the barrel channel and what appears to be indentations on the edge of the stock...this could possibly be where a barrel band was located on the musket stock.

-The Receiver/breechblock. Correct vintage for this variation, as this gun used receivers that were made available to them. The receiver features the shallow gas relief cuts on each edge of the receiver, Later models were substantially deeper and noticeable. The breechblock is the 1877 variation with the "High Arch" and simple model markings. The cam latch is a later (1878 on) ground rivet type.

-The barrel. Normal configuration on the outside though I would suspect the rifling may be a bit different the the standard Springfield. Springfield Armory used a three groove rifling in all stand configuration Trapdoor rifles. Check the rifling, there may be more then three grooves possibly up to five grooves. Also the front sight may be a rather crude style of the solid variation, later ,models had a replaceable blade. Also, look very closely for the inspection marks near the receiver. There should be, if a Springfield built gun, a small stylized eagle below an equally small "V" "P". There may also be a very small letter separate from the VP eagle mark, either an "A", "L" or "B". If there are no such marks then we have another clue. There were also to sizes of the VP Eagle marking...a larger style was used form 1878 on.

-Lockplate. Correct configuration for the era and serial number though, as mentioned, the hammer is not correct. Looking at the condition of the lock plate compared to the rest of the rifle, there is a bit of difference, though very little.

-Rear Sight. The sight is the 1879 "Buckhorn" rear sight. This type went through 5 changes over it's production period. Close examination would be needed to determine the approximate era. It woudl be correct for this variation of rifle though to be proper for the early models the 1873 stepped rear sight would be correct. The 1877 rear sight is similar to the 1879 though sight leaf is the same as the 1783 variation and featured both a smooth edge and notched edge base.

-Trigger guard. Very early small bow variation with riveted lower sling swivel and smooth trigger. It is not uncommon to see this variation on this rifle. The trigger bow was slightly enlarged in 1875 to 1876 to accommodate gloved hands, and became the standard until the one piece 1888 trigger bow was designed. There also was a grooved trigger which came out later.

Conclusion;

In around 1879 to 1883 Springfield Armory had a surplus of early variation parts which were not assembled. Since a new improved variation of the trapdoor was developed it replaced the older variant. These surplus parts were in storage, a small number were sold off to surplus dealers, the government frowned on this. A government directive to find a alternate manufacturing source for assembling and producing the current military long arm was explored. It was determined that the arsenal at Rock Island Illinois had the sufficient capability to possibly produce the Trapdoor rifle from supplied components. Rock Island Arsenal produced a small number of trapdoor rifles on the pattern of the earlier variation (M1873 first pattern) using surplus parts sent to them from Springfield Armory. These rifles cannot be confused with the "Bannerman" assembled guns. These rifles have a clear inspector mark opposite the lockplate, though I cannot recall the initials off -hand...will check my records for more detail. Additionally they have a mixture of different era parts as this was an experiment to test Rock Island's capabilities. Springfield Armory suggested that the current design variation be the only one produced and that no other manufacturers be allowed to make the standard arm.

It is my suspicion this gun is one of the guns assembled by Rock Island Arsenal as it's features are a mirror image of the rifle I had which was one these from R.I.A.. You have a very good piece there and it represents an important era in the manufacture of US martial arms. Tahnks for sharing it with us.

Cheers

Wes, aka. Alonzo

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RustyCanteen

Wes, I think you are thinking of the so-called "starred" rifles and carbines. Never have heard of anything other than the 1873 stock on an 1873 from the arsenal, not to disagree with your entire post, just that I don't know that the stock is correct.

 

The starred rifles and carbines are so named because they feature a star on the end of the serial number, it is believed they may have been assembled using state funds and not the regular Army's budget. They have new (wide, post 1877) receivers but do use older parts. So the receivers were new production even if some of the other parts were not, and the serial range was around 150,000. The stocks used were the short wrist type of 1877 and later, all starred production was circa 1880-1881.

 

The VP mark should not be on an early barrel though, unless it was changed out during a rebuild post 1875. The earliest ( I don't recall the ranges) had barrels without the VP/eagle markings, but did have a letter stamped into them although it is not believed the letter stands for the same thing as the later barrels.

 

Erskine S Allin is whose initials are found on stocks made 1878 and earlier, the pre-1877 stocks featured a small oval with the script initials "E.S.A" inside. This was later changed upon Mr. Allin's death when Samuel W. Porter took over. As you mention there were the ESA year combination stamps, but they are somewhat uncommon, especially 1877 I think.

 

The problem, is that by the time the starred rifles and carbines were being assembled the order had already been issued for the first 50,000 to be returned and replaced by the newer post 1877 wide receivered rifles. All previous models were considered obsolete. I cannot see such an old stock (nonstandard) being fitted to a rifle that was assembled nearly ten years later, not saying it couldn't be done, but in all my research on pre-1880 springfield rifles I have never heard of this.

 

And the upper barrel band is of the first pattern, made only for slings and without the stacking swivel, these were also replaced (along with the three click tumblers) during rebuild after 1875.

 

It is known that Meacham and Bannerman and others made use of the surplus parts from the rifles turned in (including many low number guns) and rebuilt them with surplus CW musket stocks.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about "1873 first pattern", the stocks used on the early 1873s (I have examined several original specimens under the 15,000 range) still didn't have the flat, the flat was done away with on the 1873, it's true that the flat was still on the 1870 .50-70s.

 

Just my opinion, nothing personal of course. I too will check and see if I have forgotten anything, I do recall something similar, but do not have memory of the stock.

 

RC

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RC;

As I said in my post I have been studying trapdoors for 20 years while collecting and have had some very rare specimens in the collection including the gun of question in this thread as well as the star marked trapdoor. The collection had all the variations of the trapdoor 45-70 carbine, as well as all the variations of the standard infantry rifle. Nothing personal intended nor taken. It is always good to correspond with fellow collectors and share our knowledge and opinions.

 

I am glad you brought up the Starred marked trapdoors, I am quite familiar with these and have examined quite a number of specimens in addition to the one I had in my collection.

The Star marked trapdoor;

There were both rifles and carbine with the star marked serial number. I have seen three different star variants, with a distinct pointed star and one with a slightly rounded star point. They are an intriguing variation that is seldom seen. The rifle I had in my collection would have rated about 98% condition and was a 172,000 serial number range. The interesting thing about it was the receiver appeared to be unfinished or even plated, while the rest of the gun was finished as normal. It had the one piece trigger guard, which was odd. Ernst and Waite theorized that the Star indicated a replacement receiver or a duplicate serial numbered receiver. All logical theories, though I was inclined to believe it may also may have indicated an uncommon special finish experiment along with a replacement receiver. I have also had a theory that it may have been a case of receiver alloy change...I don't quite with this theory as it would make no sense in a production line atmosphere, unless it was a tool room sample.

No confusion about the star marked guns and the rifle featured here...two totally different critters!!

 

Thanks for pointing out the upper barrel band...something looks amiss here. It definitely appears to be the early upper band with no stacking swivel though the configuration looks a bit off. Also the 1879 cleaning rod is not well fitted to the gun as it appears to be forced downwards for some reason...possibly the channel for the rod has not been properly routed out. I do recall the rifle I had woudl not readily accept the later cleaning rod and it appeared the same as this. A musket ramrod would fit properly though too long. Looking at the photos you can see the pin in the stock just below the rear sight, which held the ramrod retaining spoon of the Civil War musket....again this is a mirror image of the Rock Island built gun I had in my collection.

 

The "First Pattern" 1873 trapdoor series stocks were essentially unchanged till 1877 (which could be considered the "Second pattern"). The first pattern stock has a long wrist short comb design, which is a carry over from the Civil War. The flattened sides as seen on the musket stock were done away with completely in the new 1873 designed stock. All trapdoors of this era featured this stock including the carbine and cadet rifle. Due to problems experienced with the carbine in which the stock had a tendency to break at the wrist easily, the Armory strengthened this area and thus the short wrist long comb design became standardized on all trapdoors, with the exception of the cadet rifle. Additionally at about the same time the M1877 rear sight was developed and the high arch breech-block was replace with a low arch design with simplified model markings...the receiver which still retained the shallow gas relief cuts. I still have an 1877 trapdoor rifle in the collection, one of few which I kept as it is a near 95% gun...and dated 1877 with the ESA stamp.

 

The 1868 and 1870 model trapdoors utilized the musket stock, they were no new made stocks for these models. This followed a government directive to use as much of the overwhelming stock of Civil War musket still on hand. The directive comes from the original order in 1865 to develop a breech-loading design for the musket. Thus the Model 1865 First Allin's Conversion 58 rimfire was built, followed by the 1866 Second Allin's Conversion 50-70. One will commonly see these guns with multiple inspector marks of the Civil War era as well as from the time of manufacture of the conversions and the 50-70 rifles/carbines. The 1870 trapdoor action is very close in design to the 1873 series and can be considered the true descendant of the 1873 trapdoor.

 

The lack of barrel markings you refer to appear in the first two quarters of 1873 production and possibly the first quarter of 1874, after that the small VP Eagle was stamped. If memory serves me right it was late 1877 when the large VP Eagle stamp started being used. Frasca's first book has more details on this marking.

 

Ernst and Waite refer to the Rock Island experiment in assembling Trapdoor rifles. Unfortunately they did not come up with a production figure on how many were made. The rifle featured in this post is a near mirror image of the gun I had in my collection and it was a Rock Island built gun. I should stress this was an experiment to determine if Rock Island Arsenal could assemble the guns and maintain the quality of work Springfield had achieved. It is not a commonly known fact that Rock Island assembled trapdoors and even some highly advanced collectors are unaware of this. It is a fact and I woudl suspect that the rifle in this thread is one of those considering all the features I have noted. It would be interesting to know if the barrel is rifled with three grooves or five, as this would provide confirmation.

Cheers

Wes, aka. Alonzo

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RustyCanteen

Wes, I caught that part and have no doubt you have collected them for a long time. Just had a fuzzy memory as I had focused mainly on the first 40,000 1873's made when I did my study of them, of course made sure to learn all the production changes too that came after.

 

I only questioned you on the stock because I have long ago forgotten anything about the RIA work, I do recall the mention just not the details. And as you know almost any "parts" gun is sometimes mistaken for the rarer variations (I'm sure you too have seen a lot of that), so many "carbines" and "cadet" rifles are really just bannerman like jobs. So you can understand why I wanted to make certain so that there wouldn't be any misinformation.

 

I also thought the upper band looked unusual, almost reminded me of the ones made by H&R in the '70s. Photos are a little unclear what makes it look strange. On the star variants, I too have seen the three (I don't think there are more), your rifle sounds very interesting, as you know there were a lot of unusual things tried during the 1873's production. I never really thought the starred rifles were that uncommon, I guess I just happened to see more of them. I wonder if the screws on Matt's rifle for the rear sight are slotless, or if they have indication of having the original removal tool used?

 

I am glad to hear that the ramrod is configured like the one you mention having, as I said above sometimes if something looks close to a rare model it is sometimes mistaken for it. I'm sure you understand why I asked in my first response to Matt if the barrel channel was shimmed. I too am familar with the stock history of the '73, I guess I misread your response since it indicated to me you meant the early 1873s used the same stock as the 1870 model.

 

Perhaps Matt can confirm the rifling then? If it is original as you suspect that would be good of course. You do have to admit that from 10 feet away it would look like a "bannerman", unfortunately when one can't see to many close ups or actually handle the specimen it can be hard to tell if someone has a surplus assembled rifle or an original, unless of course it has one of those really bad 1884 plates on it.

 

And if there were any doubts that I was sincere when I meant nothing personal in my last post. I was mistaken and you were indeed correct.

 

RC

 

By the way Wes, I've seen some of the old springfields in your posts before (in your display thread I think), they are nice examples. :thumbsup: I would suspect that we could go on discussing 1873's and their cousins but I don't think Matt or anyone would find the parts differences as interesting! ;)

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I would suspect that we could go on discussing 1873's and their cousins but I don't think Matt or anyone would find the parts differences as interesting! ;)

 

RC

I am with you on that one brother!!!!

These trapdoors are an addiction. I ended up with nearly 70 variations before I contracted peroxide poisoning and sold most of them off...more to the peroxide story someday.. ;)

There is a lot of incredible information in print, though it helps to have the guns in your hand to study. I was on the verge of buying an 1884 Rod Bayonet rifle years ago. The fellow was showing it to me and I asked about the rack and pinion rear sight...as it was not fully functional. The rod locking system looked right though something raised the hairs on the back of my neck...just hunch I guess. The front sight cover did not look right so the further we discussed it the better understanding I got of it and I made a conclusion to suggest to the guy. The gun was a clone, assembled using nearly all original parts...it was part of the fellows collection. The fellow, a very close friend, was testing me to see if I could tell if the gun was right...I got a passing grade on all points. :thumbsup:

 

Those trapdoors I had are like old friends...I have not forgotten them and I doubt I ever will. One group of four guns I sold to a dealer in eastern Canada thinking they would be gone forever. :( While doing a gun show in Portland Oregon with a buddy from Montana I had the opportunity to see fellows collection, he was an advanced collector and noted author. As we entered his gun room I immediately spotted three trapdoor rifles. While looking the other way, I told my buddy that, "there are trapdoors in here...I can just tell"...looking around I asked where are they. The owner looked kind of odd then pointed to corner of the rack. I stood there looking at them in the rack and said..."I know these guns!!" He just laughed and my buddy just smiled. I picked up the Star Marked rifle, smiled and said "Hello Darlin, good to see you again." :love: The guy just about lost his mind laughing. :laughing1: I handed the gun to Hayes and said "here is serial number 170192 with a star" without looking at the gun. Hayes just smiled looked at the serial number and asked me if it was once part of my collection...it was, as well as the 1888 Rod Bayonet rifle and the 1870 rifle that were in the rack. Well...it seems the fellow bought three of four guns I sold to the Canadian dealer. The guy did not beleive it since according to him "he imported them from...get this...Canada." :think: I told him who he bought them from...his jaw hit the floor and he was nearly speechless. :blink: I knew the dealer personally and sold the guns to him about 6 months before that day. This fellow and the dealer were also very close friends and visited together frequently. He asked me more about the guns and I told him all the details about them...he was writing feverishly in order to get it all written down. He then looked at Hayes (my very good friend) and asked if I was on the right track. To this day I will never forget the reply from Hayes. "Let me tell you, Wes is like a walking encyclopedia when it comes to Trapdoor Springfield's, you will never find anyone who knows more about them and is as willing to share his knowledge." The guy turned white then shook my hand...I was a bit embarrassed though really appreciated the comment. :twothumbup: Mind you that was in my long gone dedicated days of Springfield collecting...it brings back good memories to be able talk about these things again.

I apologize for the long winded story, but I remember Hayes and I getting a good chuckle about the guys reaction.

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19delta-uav

All I have to say is wow! What a fantastic wealth of knowledge we have here on the forum in this category. I just purchased a trapdoor a week ago and will post it on the forum tomorrow to get the good word from you experts.

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RustyCanteen
RC

I am with you on that one brother!!!!

These trapdoors are an addiction. I ended up with nearly 70 variations before I contracted peroxide poisoning and sold most of them off...more to the peroxide story someday.. ;)

There is a lot of incredible information in print, though it helps to have the guns in your hand to study. I was on the verge of buying an 1884 Rod Bayonet rifle years ago. The fellow was showing it to me and I asked about the rack and pinion rear sight...as it was not fully functional. The rod locking system looked right though something raised the hairs on the back of my neck...just hunch I guess. The front sight cover did not look right so the further we discussed it the better understanding I got of it and I made a conclusion to suggest to the guy. The gun was a clone, assembled using nearly all original parts...it was part of the fellows collection. The fellow, a very close friend, was testing me to see if I could tell if the gun was right...I got a passing grade on all points. :thumbsup:

 

That's pretty good, at one time some of those parts could be found (just like the rod bayonet .30-03 parts were around for some time before they dried up) but in some ways it's good those loose parts are harder to find now. May keep the more dishonest from trying to pass it off without the buyer's knowledge.

 

Funny story about Hayes! :lol: You know his "old" WWI book was one of the very few collector oriented books about US WWI militaria for years, unless you want to count the old "Field Equipments of the Infantry" book too, amazing how times have changed since those were published! So much that was considered common is now hard to find.

 

It just seems like few are interested in the old .45-70 Springfields anymore, what a shame. Very well made with lots of history and variations that could go on forever (almost! ;) ) Nice to be able to discuss them with someone else who was interested in them too.

 

RC

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My love affair for the trapdoor started long before I considered collecting them. In the early 1970's they were more of shooter grade gun then anything.

Nobody considered collecting them as guys were getting into Winchesters and Colts...aka. "cowboy guns."

My dad and I used an 1884 trapdoor rifle for black powder cartridge rifle competition for years...in fact I have my dad's first trapdoor he ever owned...an 1884 in about 85 yo 90% condition. It was an award winner for me at many black powder shoots. Guys got really upset when their Winchester High-wall would get beat by "an old Trapdoor." Even in the past 5 years I have been using a bubba'd trapdoor rifle for long range matches at the local cowboy action shoots. It would regularly spank the Shiloh Sharps that other guys bragged about. One fellow told me I should nickname the old trapdoor "The Sharps Eater"!!!!! We got good laugh out of that other then the the Sharps owner. Him and I traded guns on a challenge match out to 300 yards. We exchanged guns and sighting details. He beat me with my own gun though I was using his Sharps. I jokingly asked if he wanted to trade straight across...he seemed a bit insulted for some reason. ;)

I recall some of the established collectors and dealers give me hell for collecting Springfields..."they aren't worth anything" one guy said. Come to think of it...it was the same guy who said "old army uniforms ain't worth anything, don't bother wasting your money on that crap!!!" Good thing I don't listen to all the advise these guys give out!!!!

 

Hey Delta-UAV...would love to see your trapdoor!!!!! Bring it on, buddy!!!!!

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RustyCanteen
My love affair for the trapdoor started long before I considered collecting them. In the early 1970's they were more of shooter grade gun then anything.

Nobody considered collecting them as guys were getting into Winchesters and Colts...aka. "cowboy guns."

My dad and I used an 1884 trapdoor rifle for black powder cartridge rifle competition for years...in fact I have my dad's first trapdoor he ever owned...an 1884 in about 85 yo 90% condition. It was an award winner for me at many black powder shoots. Guys got really upset when their Winchester High-wall would get beat by "an old Trapdoor." Even in the past 5 years I have been using a bubba'd trapdoor rifle for long range matches at the local cowboy action shoots. It would regularly spank the Shiloh Sharps that other guys bragged about. One fellow told me I should nickname the old trapdoor "The Sharps Eater"!!!!! We got good laugh out of that other then the the Sharps owner. Him and I traded guns on a challenge match out to 300 yards. We exchanged guns and sighting details. He beat me with my own gun though I was using his Sharps. I jokingly asked if he wanted to trade straight across...he seemed a bit insulted for some reason. ;)

I recall some of the established collectors and dealers give me hell for collecting Springfields..."they aren't worth anything" one guy said. Come to think of it...it was the same guy who said "old army uniforms ain't worth anything, don't bother wasting your money on that crap!!!" Good thing I don't listen to all the advise these guys give out!!!!

 

Hey Delta-UAV...would love to see your trapdoor!!!!! Bring it on, buddy!!!!!

 

Oh you're right about the trapdoors, I think those who don't like them haven't picked one up. Once you pick one up you'll never want to put it down. :lol:

 

I think people underestimate them! :lol:

 

Yeah let's see more! :thumbsup:

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  • 2 weeks later...
1936farmall

Very nice Trapdoor! Great information from the experts! I have a star marked rifle and was glad to read information about them.

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