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"Roosevelt's SS"

Started by Skylighter , Oct 27 2007 11:02 PM

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#21 88thcollector

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 03:28 PM

If the one that is being mentioned from North Carolina is sewn to a Generals flag, that one is original. He bought this from us a couple of years ago. I can't remember the General's ( maybe McCown?) name but all the patches sewn on the flag followed his career from WWII through Vietnam. The patch is a standard fully embroidered 30th division that has had FDR and the SS runes hand embroidered. There is also a cover of a wartime Stars & Stripes newspaper that has this artwork on it. The 36th that was mentioned earlier has ROOSEVELT's SS on a tab that is worn above the patch.


maybe the same one but it was not sewn to a flag.

#22 Bill K

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 04:28 PM

30th_FDR_SS.jpg

Here's one I have. Not the pretty sewn kind- but inked similar to some of the armor patches out there. I got it off ebay several years ago for $5. It's probably good because the seller I got it from really didn't know one patch from the next and listed everything he had for $5 each starting bid. Considering the price, if he was trying to put one over on me I don't think it was too much of a sucess.
Bill

#23 36-tex

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 06:25 PM

If the one that is being mentioned from North Carolina is sewn to a Generals flag, that one is original. He bought this from us a couple of years ago. I can't remember the General's ( maybe McCown?) name but all the patches sewn on the flag followed his career from WWII through Vietnam. The patch is a standard fully embroidered 30th division that has had FDR and the SS runes hand embroidered. There is also a cover of a wartime Stars & Stripes newspaper that has this artwork on it. The 36th that was mentioned earlier has ROOSEVELT's SS on a tab that is worn above the patch.



The 36th patch I have seen has a tab that reads "American SS"

#24 Skylighter

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 12:04 PM

The veteran who I spoke said that the "SS" he saw on the paches were yellow embroided. Any comments on that?

#25 redone

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 02:04 PM

This is the FDR SS patch I have. I found it in the the pocket of a 30th Div uniform I picked up.

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#26 Skylighter

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 07:30 AM

That's one nice looking patch! I can't see it on the picture, but is the embroided "SS" and FDR white or faided yellow?

Would it be possible for you to send me a picture of the uniform also? Thanks in advance!

#27 redone

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 08:14 AM

The thread is an older looking white color. I'll have to get someone to take a picture of the uniform for me. I do not have a digital camera. It's nice with ribbons , French cord, Honor Guard Tab, & Unit Crests. The odd thing is the crests are screw back and they are on the shoulder straps. I think the owner had them from earlier in the war for his class A and later just put them on . I'll try to get a photo on next week.

#28 cpatrick

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 09:38 AM

Does anyone have any idea how many of these may be floating around?? I understand that they are considered rare, but just how rare are they?

As far as the Waffen-SS is concerned, I don't really like the term "elite", as some like to call them. A very large majority of them were sent to the Russian Front, where they gained a lot of experience in combat. Not only their combat experience during Barbarossa, but also the Blitz Krieg gave them an edge over your standard army or luftwaffe unit. (Luft assualt troops) Not because they were "better soldiers", but because they gained the most experience in the beginning. As the war dragged on, the army units began to gain the necessary experience that made the SS such a capable fighting force.

Lets do a brief analysis of the Waffen-SS compared to the Heer (Army). On June 6, 1944, when allied troops landed in Normandy, the first troops that they were to encounter were mostly Heer troops. Many of the soldiers serving on the coast were inexperienced soldiers, having never seen the fighting that had occured when France was invaded. Interestingly, many were not even German. Many of the defenders were Foreign Volunteers from Eastern Europe. Initially, it was not believed that an attack was going to occure at Normandy, so, as they saw it, there was no real need to place their best soldiers at that point in the line. I know that some will disagree with me, but as hard as the landings were, (And they were hard!) the ground fell with relative ease. The fighting would have been hard, certainly. Heavy weapons on fixed positions on high ground. Seaborne infantry negotiating water, unstable sand, obstacles, barbed wire, mines - but this is nothing foreign to a heavily defended position. However, once we established the beach head, that wall collapsed.

The troops farther inland, such as the ones that the Canadians were to fight, were SS men, and when they were encountered, they sang a different song that what was sung at Juno and Omaha. These troops did not give up ground easily, they were experienced, and most infamously, they were BRUTAL. Perhaps this is where the "elite" stereotype comes from. Perhaps some like to cover up the brutal tactics of the SS by just saying that they were elite. Let's face it, even their division titles spoke of their brutality. SS-Totenkopf. (Death's Head) Reinhard Heidrich. (Brutal SS-Obergruppenfuhrer), and the list goes on.

Many of the what-if's of the invasion is what if those SS tanks were sent when they were asked for? What if the Luftwaffe attacked the troops in the channel? What if the SS were moved with haste to the beach? There's little doubt that the invasion would have been a flop. A disaster. It would have been Dunkirque one thousand-fold. However, "what-if's" are only fantasy. It didn't happen. Georring failed the troops at Normandy by offering no air support. Rommel failed the troops at Normandy by not moving in MUCH more armor and experieced troops when reports came of the invasion. Infact, there were reports that an invasion was likely, "somewhere", and he was off at a wedding in Paris!

Provisionally speaking, the SS were not any more equipped that their Heer counterparts. In many cases, they were ill-equipped. The concept of the SS-Grenadier was not indiginous to the SS. Heer outfits also had heavily armed Grenadiers. (The 26th Hungarian Waffen-Grenadier Division comes to mind) For those that are not aware, a Grenadier in terms of the Reich, are outfits that carry a highly explosive punch; more heavy weapons than a basic rifle company. Infact, when we look at SS men on the Russian Front, many are seen carrying Russian arms. Many froze to death because they were not prepared for that terrible Russian winter.

However, one thing must be clearly understood. The Waffen-SS were not to be seen as inferior soldiers, by ANY means. They were to be feared by many, and respected as an adversary, never to be underestimated.

To surrender to the SS would be akin to playing Russian Roullette, with 4 of five chambers loaded.

I hope that you have enjoyed my thesis - LOL

Chris

Edited by cpatrick, 02 November 2007 - 09:51 AM.


#29 Ken Crane

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 08:19 PM

Whew....flashback for a second...........thought I was back on the wehrmacht-awards forum again..........I had to look around my office and see that all the German stuff was gone and was replaced by a really nice collection of US 3ID items! ^_^

#30 mortaydc60

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 06:32 AM

Hi Chris,

Sorry for the miscue,but to answer your question about how rare and how many exist of this patch I would say about afew thousand after the news of this article gets around the collecting block. Mort

#31 tredhed2

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 11:14 PM

Does anyone have any idea how many of these may be floating around?? I understand that they are considered rare, but just how rare are they?

As far as the Waffen-SS is concerned, I don't really like the term "elite", as some like to call them. A very large majority of them were sent to the Russian Front, where they gained a lot of experience in combat. Not only their combat experience during Barbarossa, but also the Blitz Krieg gave them an edge over your standard army or luftwaffe unit. (Luft assualt troops) Not because they were "better soldiers", but because they gained the most experience in the beginning. As the war dragged on, the army units began to gain the necessary experience that made the SS such a capable fighting force.

Lets do a brief analysis of the Waffen-SS compared to the Heer (Army). On June 6, 1944, when allied troops landed in Normandy, the first troops that they were to encounter were mostly Heer troops. Many of the soldiers serving on the coast were inexperienced soldiers, having never seen the fighting that had occured when France was invaded. Interestingly, many were not even German. Many of the defenders were Foreign Volunteers from Eastern Europe. Initially, it was not believed that an attack was going to occure at Normandy, so, as they saw it, there was no real need to place their best soldiers at that point in the line. I know that some will disagree with me, but as hard as the landings were, (And they were hard!) the ground fell with relative ease. The fighting would have been hard, certainly. Heavy weapons on fixed positions on high ground. Seaborne infantry negotiating water, unstable sand, obstacles, barbed wire, mines - but this is nothing foreign to a heavily defended position. However, once we established the beach head, that wall collapsed.

The troops farther inland, such as the ones that the Canadians were to fight, were SS men, and when they were encountered, they sang a different song that what was sung at Juno and Omaha. These troops did not give up ground easily, they were experienced, and most infamously, they were BRUTAL. Perhaps this is where the "elite" stereotype comes from. Perhaps some like to cover up the brutal tactics of the SS by just saying that they were elite. Let's face it, even their division titles spoke of their brutality. SS-Totenkopf. (Death's Head) Reinhard Heidrich. (Brutal SS-Obergruppenfuhrer), and the list goes on.

Many of the what-if's of the invasion is what if those SS tanks were sent when they were asked for? What if the Luftwaffe attacked the troops in the channel? What if the SS were moved with haste to the beach? There's little doubt that the invasion would have been a flop. A disaster. It would have been Dunkirque one thousand-fold. However, "what-if's" are only fantasy. It didn't happen. Georring failed the troops at Normandy by offering no air support. Rommel failed the troops at Normandy by not moving in MUCH more armor and experieced troops when reports came of the invasion. Infact, there were reports that an invasion was likely, "somewhere", and he was off at a wedding in Paris!

Provisionally speaking, the SS were not any more equipped that their Heer counterparts. In many cases, they were ill-equipped. The concept of the SS-Grenadier was not indiginous to the SS. Heer outfits also had heavily armed Grenadiers. (The 26th Hungarian Waffen-Grenadier Division comes to mind) For those that are not aware, a Grenadier in terms of the Reich, are outfits that carry a highly explosive punch; more heavy weapons than a basic rifle company. Infact, when we look at SS men on the Russian Front, many are seen carrying Russian arms. Many froze to death because they were not prepared for that terrible Russian winter.

However, one thing must be clearly understood. The Waffen-SS were not to be seen as inferior soldiers, by ANY means. They were to be feared by many, and respected as an adversary, never to be underestimated.

To surrender to the SS would be akin to playing Russian Roullette, with 4 of five chambers loaded.

I hope that you have enjoyed my thesis - LOL

Chris


Yes, maybe this post should be on that other chat room.

#32 cpatrick

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 01:24 PM

I see absolutely nothing wrong with an intellectual comparative analysis of this "Waffen-SS a'la FDR", and the real "Men in Black". It's history folks - it won't bite; embrace it...

Chris

#33 101combatvet

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 05:45 AM

The reference to the 30th ID being FDR's SS probably has more to do with their camouflage HBTs they wore in Normandy then anything else.

#34 Jim Baker

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 08:10 AM

Nice review, but probably better left at WAF.

BTW, Rommel went home for his wifes birthday, not to Paris.



101, I like the camo reference. Could very well be.

#35 Jeeper704

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 12:49 PM

I believe his wife had her birthday on June 6. He had bought her a pair of shoes.
A lot of officers were on a "Kriegsspiel" as well and not at their stations.

Not only the camo uniforms but also the tenacity they fought with lead to them being called "Roosevelt's SS".

Erwin

#36 Skylighter

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:12 PM

Not more to tell about possible variations and examples?

#37 JimmCapp

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 11:34 AM

Could someone explain more about who these people were, and what they did? I am assuming that the FDR SS would have been more equivalant to the Allgemeine SS, and not the infamous Waffen-SS? (Political Vs. Combat Component) I am actually kind of shocked that they would even desire to liken themselves to Himmler's finest.

Chris



My grandfather served with the 3rd armored divison and said most German infantry would just run when the tanks rolled in, except the SS...
Most combat troops respected the SS for their ferocity, ideology aside.

Edited by JimmCapp, 05 May 2009 - 11:35 AM.


#38 AustinO

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 07:51 PM

Whew....flashback for a second...........thought I was back on the wehrmacht-awards forum again..........I had to look around my office and see that all the German stuff was gone and was replaced by a really nice collection of US 3ID items! ^_^

Oh man this made me laugh. I had a relative in the 30th, too bad his Ike doesn't have one of these patches...

#39 redone

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 03:51 AM

I have a 30th Div ssi with SS hand stitched on it. I found it in the pocket of a 30th uniform. Sorry, I can't post a picture. My scanner died and I don't have a digital camera.

#40 ASMIC2971

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 12:21 PM

Old thread, but I found this patch at one of the local VFW's by my parents house one evening.

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