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CBI Theater made Chinese Wing or NOT ??


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#51 bobgee

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 07:23 AM

Bob,
Those are beautiful examples, I really like the enamel work. They are a casting and some detail has been lost, but I think they not only fit this thread, they have a great appeal! (At least they have for the two of us!)
Can we see the inverse clasp?


Nothing to see, really. It's just an open wire catch, installed upside down!
Best.....Bob

#52 rustywings

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 11:25 AM

Nice Air Crew wings Bob!

#53 Nack

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 05:57 PM

I picked these up recently. The guy I got them from obtained them from an estate sale, where he was told the guy was in the Flying Tigers (as you might suspect, upon further investigation, the estate sale guy said flying tigers because he had seen a 14th AAF patch in the vet's stuff). Either way, these seem to be theater made, so Chinese maybe? They don't have the Brit-style hardware. Interesting wings - pretty crude, rather thin. What so you?....

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#54 Nack

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 05:58 PM

Here's a shot showing the thickness.

There is a "sterling" hallmark.

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Edited by Nack, 17 August 2011 - 05:58 PM.


#55 Nack

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 05:25 AM

Anyone ever seen wings like these - theater made or otherwise?

Edited by Nack, 19 August 2011 - 05:25 AM.


#56 pfrost

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 07:01 AM

Sadly, I have seen these type before. Also, sadly, I don't think they are theater-made (unless you consider someone's garage a theater of operation).

While it is true that a relatively few theater made wings were cast, the vast majority weren't. On the other hand, the vast majority of fakes are cast. I think this one falls in the latter category.
Sorry.

Patrick

Edited by pfrost, 19 August 2011 - 07:06 AM.


#57 Nack

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 07:46 AM

Sadly, I have seen these type before. Also, sadly, I don't think they are theater-made (unless you consider someone's garage a theater of operation).

While it is true that a relatively few theater made wings were cast, the vast majority weren't. On the other hand, the vast majority of fakes are cast. I think this one falls in the latter category.
Sorry.

Patrick


Hmm. Are the examples you've seen discussed elsewhere on the forum?

I'm sure I can return them to the fellow. I'd like to study up a bit first, though. They weren't particularly expensive, and have a professional-looking sterling mark, so I thought they could indeed be theater-made wings. Bummer.

#58 pfrost

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 08:16 AM

Hmm. Are the examples you've seen discussed elsewhere on the forum?

I'm sure I can return them to the fellow. I'd like to study up a bit first, though. They weren't particularly expensive, and have a professional-looking sterling mark, so I thought they could indeed be theater-made wings. Bummer.


Similar (if not the same wings?) were once discussed on a thread in this forum, but I can't seem to find it now. We also have a pinned thread on different types of fake and reproduction wings above.

Patrick

#59 CliffP

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 12:04 PM

Hmm. Are the examples you've seen discussed elsewhere on the forum?

I'm sure I can return them to the fellow. I'd like to study up a bit first, though. They weren't particularly expensive, and have a professional-looking sterling mark, so I thought they could indeed be theater-made wings. Bummer.


;)
When looking for solid, expert advice on a wing badge we would be hard pressed to find any one more qualified than Patrick.

Cliff

#60 Jack's Son

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 01:47 PM

Patrick and Cliff certainly don't need my back-up, but as a novas, let me tell you that you are talking to two of the BEST!
They have helped ne a great deal. :thumbsup:

#61 Nack

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 08:01 PM

Patrick and Cliff certainly don't need my back-up, but as a novas, let me tell you that you are talking to two of the BEST!
They have helped ne a great deal. :thumbsup:


I hear ya - I'm not knocking their expertise, I just want to be able to tell the seller when I return them something a bit more detailed than "these wings are iffy per a really knowledgeble fellow, but you don't know him." I'll hunt around in the wings thread some more. Thanks to all!

#62 pfrost

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 07:32 AM

I hear ya - I'm not knocking their expertise, I just want to be able to tell the seller when I return them something a bit more detailed than "these wings are iffy per a really knowledgeble fellow, but you don't know him." I'll hunt around in the wings thread some more. Thanks to all!


At the risk of hijacking a thread on nice vintage theater made wings, I will try to add some insight to the discussion why I think these particular wings are fake.

First off, ! suspect that these are sand cast wings.

In general, I would argue that cast wings fall into two broad categories.

1) Crude sand cast wings. As said before, most cast wings are fake--and were likely made in the 80's or so when the interest in wings began to peak. These sand cast were made to fool collectors, use some cheap pot metal, and almost always are sold as either CBI-made wings or POW made wings (especially if the castings were particularly crude). Well before many of the new and excellent reference pieces were published, most people didn't have a real CBI or POW made wing to compare, so it was a relatively easy scam to perpetuate on collectors.

2) Subsequent to that, the casting process got better and some castings are designed to pass off as original die struck wings. Some of the higher end cast wings can be a real chore to identify (some of the fake JR Gaunt wings come to mind).

In both cases above, the fakes are always based on an existing wing that is used to make the casting mold. Be it an AECO wing or an early Amcraft/LGB style wing (as seen in this fake), they are always based on an existing wing of some sort.

It is my experience that the CIB wings were not usually made by the sand cast method (again, we have to speak in generalities here, as I suspect that there are always exceptions). Remember, these people were artisans and craftsmen. Thus, the wings that were made there almost always show a high degree of craftsmanship. These wings were almost always die struck or hand carved/worked (you can see excellent examples of this in this thread).

Finally, while some small minority of wings were likely cast, those were more than likely made using the lost wax method. The model for those wings would not have been made using a generic WWII wing, but likely something carved out of wax by the craftsman. Thus, these wings are of a unique pattern.

One can't know 100% for sure and I could be well off base, but the fact that this wing is a crude sand casting of an existing WWII pattern wing using more modern fittings and the only support for it being a CBI made wing is the presence of 14th AAF patch in the estate.... makes me say :thumbdown:

Patrick

#63 Nack

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 01:56 PM

At the risk of hijacking a thread on nice vintage theater made wings, I will try to add some insight to the discussion why I think these particular wings are fake.

First off, ! suspect that these are sand cast wings.

In general, I would argue that cast wings fall into two broad categories.

1) Crude sand cast wings. As said before, most cast wings are fake--and were likely made in the 80's or so when the interest in wings began to peak. These sand cast were made to fool collectors, use some cheap pot metal, and almost always are sold as either CBI-made wings or POW made wings (especially if the castings were particularly crude). Well before many of the new and excellent reference pieces were published, most people didn't have a real CBI or POW made wing to compare, so it was a relatively easy scam to perpetuate on collectors.

2) Subsequent to that, the casting process got better and some castings are designed to pass off as original die struck wings. Some of the higher end cast wings can be a real chore to identify (some of the fake JR Gaunt wings come to mind).

In both cases above, the fakes are always based on an existing wing that is used to make the casting mold. Be it an AECO wing or an early Amcraft/LGB style wing (as seen in this fake), they are always based on an existing wing of some sort.

It is my experience that the CIB wings were not usually made by the sand cast method (again, we have to speak in generalities here, as I suspect that there are always exceptions). Remember, these people were artisans and craftsmen. Thus, the wings that were made there almost always show a high degree of craftsmanship. These wings were almost always die struck or hand carved/worked (you can see excellent examples of this in this thread).

Finally, while some small minority of wings were likely cast, those were more than likely made using the lost wax method. The model for those wings would not have been made using a generic WWII wing, but likely something carved out of wax by the craftsman. Thus, these wings are of a unique pattern.

One can't know 100% for sure and I could be well off base, but the fact that this wing is a crude sand casting of an existing WWII pattern wing using more modern fittings and the only support for it being a CBI made wing is the presence of 14th AAF patch in the estate.... makes me say :thumbdown:

Patrick


Understood - makes sense. I greatly appreciate it! :thumbsup:

#64 Nack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 04:18 PM

Thanks again for the lesson. I returned the wings and picked up these instead. I guess the rule for theater-made wings is to be skeptical and exercise caution.

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#65 Jack's Son

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 09:22 AM

Nack,
Can you show us a couple of different pix of the clasp on the back of the wings?

#66 Nack

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 06:19 PM

Nack,
Can you show us a couple of different pix of the clasp on the back of the wings?


The "Chinese" wings, or the Air Gunners?

#67 Jack's Son

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 06:28 PM

The "Chinese" wings, or the Air Gunners?

Decisions, decisions.......I'd like the Air Gunner, Please.

#68 Patch

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 09:44 PM

I have a pair of wings I would like an opinian on. They look cast with NH on the back and they are 2 3/4 W X 5/8 H
Any think would help Thanks

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#69 Nack

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 05:14 AM

Decisions, decisions.......I'd like the Air Gunner, Please.


Sorry - just saw this.

Will do.

#70 graham

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 05:43 AM

016.JPG 015.JPG

Back of the Command Pilot. The wreath and star are attached only at the shoulders of the wings.


Russ,
My command pilot with wreath and star attached in a similar way to your senior pilot.
Obviously from the same stable.

Graham.

#71 rustywings

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 11:55 AM

016.JPG 015.JPG

Russ,
My command pilot with wreath and star attached in a similar way to your senior pilot.
Obviously from the same stable.

Graham.


Terrific Command Pilot variation Graham! Thank you for the posting.

Russ

#72 B-17Guy

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 06:35 PM

Here is a CBI made, 2" Bombardier wing I just picked up with the same hallmark as
Russ' Pilot wing in post #10.

Best, John

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#73 B-17Guy

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 06:36 PM

Back

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#74 Jack's Son

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 08:25 PM

This is a new 2" Liaison wing I just got as well.

2.jpg

4.jpg

Edited by Jack's Son, 14 January 2013 - 08:27 PM.


#75 Jack's Son

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 08:29 PM

Chinese, I believe...

7.jpg

9.jpg


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