cthomas Posted October 21, 2007 Share #1 Posted October 21, 2007 Can anyone help me ID this unusual collar disk? Could it be a pre-WWI disk for a Radio Operator Instructor at the Aviation & Aeronautics school? It appears to be a custom jeweler's piece that measures about 5/8" in diameter ( a little smaller than the regulation 1"). Thumb screw has "John F Rick Jewelry Company N.Y." engraved on top. I know the officers had to fend for themselves when it came to acquiring their insignia. Could this be one of those customized pieces purchased at a local jeweler in N.Y.? The 1st Aero Company of the New York National Guard was stationed there in 1915. Maybe it's not related to that early organization. It could be for an instructor at the aviation school later on. Lastly, is it WWI related? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cthomas Posted October 21, 2007 Author Share #2 Posted October 21, 2007 A view of the jeweler's address on the thumb screw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cthomas Posted October 21, 2007 Author Share #3 Posted October 21, 2007 and a view of the reverse... I look forward to your replies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekj Posted October 21, 2007 Share #4 Posted October 21, 2007 Hi How about "Air Service Signal Radio Operator " ? Just A guess . What ever it is it is a Great Piece . Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cthomas Posted October 21, 2007 Author Share #5 Posted October 21, 2007 Hi How about "Air Service Signal Radio Operator " ? Just A guess . What ever it is it is a Great Piece . Dave Hey Dave. As good a guess as I could come up with. Thanks! Now, to figure out a possible date... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpatrick Posted October 22, 2007 Share #6 Posted October 22, 2007 That's an interesting disc! I own an Air Service M1917 combat helmet. It has a painted decal that indicates that it belonged to the 299th Aero-Squadron. Mine has the lightening bolts below the four-blade propellor, just as yours does. I was informed by a few knowledgeable collectors on this forum last year that the lightening bolts likely indicated that the soldier was an electrician. Perhaps your disc has some relation to this?? I can post pics of the helmet if you wish, for comparison - she's a beauty. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cthomas Posted October 22, 2007 Author Share #7 Posted October 22, 2007 That's an interesting disc! I own an Air Service M1917 combat helmet. It has a painted decal that indicates that it belonged to the 299th Aero-Squadron. Mine has the lightening bolts below the four-blade propellor, just as yours does. I was informed by a few knowledgeable collectors on this forum last year that the lightening bolts likely indicated that the soldier was an electrician. Perhaps your disc has some relation to this?? I can post pics of the helmet if you wish, for comparison - she's a beauty. Chris Good morning Chris and thank you for your input. Maybe those same members that helped you ID that helmet will know, more or less, who wore this disk. And yes, I'd love to see that helmet when you get the chance. I look forward to seeing the pics. As for the disk pictured here, it's most likely for an Air Service Signal/Radio operator, which Dave guessed earlier. I'm just trying to confirm who or why they would have worn such a disk and why the custom piece. Could it have been for an aviation school instructor?? -Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekj Posted October 23, 2007 Share #8 Posted October 23, 2007 Hi Chuck !! Do you have a copy of William Emersons book " Encyclopedia of United States Army Insignia and Uniforms " ? on page 300 is states : The Quartermaster Corps issued disks with lightning bolts not only to electricians sergeants of various grades , but also during WWI to radio sergeants . This later practice was not authorized according to uniform regulations , although the quartermaster Corps did , through letters, allow this practice to continue until june 1919 " Hope this helps . Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cthomas Posted October 23, 2007 Author Share #9 Posted October 23, 2007 Hi Chuck !! Do you have a copy of William Emersons book " Encyclopedia of United States Army Insignia and Uniforms " ? on page 300 is states : The Quartermaster Corps issued disks with lightning bolts not only to electricians sergeants of various grades , but also during WWI to radio sergeants . This later practice was not authorized according to uniform regulations , although the quartermaster Corps did , through letters, allow this practice to continue until june 1919 " Hope this helps . Dave Makes perfect sense to me and quite possibly the answer as to its origins- but for one thing. Why the Jeweler's logo on back? -Chuck PS That book you mentioned is on my list of things to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekj Posted October 23, 2007 Share #10 Posted October 23, 2007 Makes perfect sense to me and quite possibly the answer as to its origins- but for one thing. Why the Jeweler's logo on back? -Chuck PS That book you mentioned is on my list of things to get. Good morning Chuck !! The insignia may have not been Authorized and the unit had the Jeweler make them up for them . Another could be that the jeweler made insignia . Now here is another question what Air Service units were in NY near the Jeweler ? It is unlikely that a unit in california had insignia made in NY for them . So I imagin the unit was near by . That is if the unit had them made . There is a lot of ifs here . This could get interesting as it may be possible to track down the unit that had them made . I hope this made sense . Dave And Chris Maybe your helmet is a radio operator instead of an electrician ? there really wasn't that much electrical on WWI planes , and for that matter radios . Just a thought . Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker502 Posted October 23, 2007 Share #11 Posted October 23, 2007 The USAS School of Aerial Photography was set up and run by the Kodak people in Rochester NY. Maybe it's from there? I would agree on the signal /radio aspect with the lighting bolts. I have a aero patch that has the lighting bolts coming out of a ring or circle. Will try to post later. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cthomas Posted October 23, 2007 Author Share #12 Posted October 23, 2007 Good morning Chuck !!The insignia may have not been Authorized and the unit had the Jeweler make them up for them . Another could be that the jeweler made insignia . Now here is another question what Air Service units were in NY near the Jeweler ? It is unlikely that a unit in california had insignia made in NY for them . So I imagin the unit was near by . That is if the unit had them made . There is a lot of ifs here . This could get interesting as it may be possible to track down the unit that had them made . I hope this made sense . Dave And Chris Maybe your helmet is a radio operator instead of an electrician ? there really wasn't that much electrical on WWI planes , and for that matter radios . Just a thought . Dave And a good morning to you Dave. There was the 1st Aero Company of the New York National Guard stationed there in 1915. This was of course the forerunner of the Army Air Service. As to what other units were in N.Y. after the air service branch was formalized, I do not know. I look forward to hearing from someone who does. -Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cthomas Posted October 23, 2007 Author Share #13 Posted October 23, 2007 The USAS School of Aerial Photography was set up and run by the Kodak people in Rochester NY. Maybe it's from there? I would agree on the signal /radio aspect with the lighting bolts. I have a aero patch that has the lighting bolts coming out of a ring or circle. Will try to post later. Paul Please do Paul. I look forward to seeing it! -Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpatrick Posted October 23, 2007 Share #14 Posted October 23, 2007 I will see about getting pictures up today. I wouldn't necessarily conclude that the disc was a privately made device. It could just be an extremely rare collar disc. A good example would be the WWI Postal Service collar disc. This disc features a running greyhound, and now that I think on it, there may actually be lightening bolts in the design as well - I'll have to look it up. The postal disc sold at an auction a couple of years ago for over $1,000. The point being is that that disc is extremely rare, just as your disc is. Depending on the manufacturing capacity of the jeweler, he very well may have held small orders for collar discs - especially for such an obscure outfit as this. (Or Air Service in general) Because WWI has long been an overlooked field in militaria collecting (I love it!), there are many things that have yet to be identified. Not because the answers are not there, but because this field does not have the man power of collectors/scholars/researchers as other fields have, namely the Civil War & WWII. This can work to our benefit, because we can find many great pieces of military history out there for little money. I will see about posting that helmet later today. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpatrick Posted October 23, 2007 Share #15 Posted October 23, 2007 Dave, That's an interesting theory on the helmet. I will post a picture of the decal here, and then I will post the actual helmet in the helmet section. One fellow thought that an electrician would have worked on a base, though not necessarily on planes. I am not sure what, if any, electrical parts were on the planes of the era. Or, perhaps the lightening bolts don't mean anything? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpatrick Posted October 23, 2007 Share #16 Posted October 23, 2007 Here we go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cthomas Posted October 23, 2007 Author Share #17 Posted October 23, 2007 Here we go... Chris- Nice helmet! It does indeed look like one for a radio/signal operator of the 299th Aero squadron. Thanks for your opinion on the unusual Air Service disk. Your feedback is appreciated! -Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpatrick Posted October 24, 2007 Share #18 Posted October 24, 2007 Thanks Chuck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker502 Posted October 26, 2007 Share #19 Posted October 26, 2007 Heres the patch. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpatrick Posted October 26, 2007 Share #20 Posted October 26, 2007 Great looking patch Paul! What a shame that this was cut off a uniform. About a year ago I had the chance to buy factory stacks of 50 for $500 a bunch. At the time I was working on a deal for a double proof NSKK dagger, so I missed out. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cthomas Posted October 27, 2007 Author Share #21 Posted October 27, 2007 Interesting Paul. I'm still trying to figure out the extra brownish stitching along the outside of the patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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