Flightmedic Posted October 20, 2007 Share #1 Posted October 20, 2007 Need help with trying to figure out what timeframe these were made. Markings on back are JR GAUNT and a 925 in a box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cooper Posted October 21, 2007 Share #2 Posted October 21, 2007 Not exactly my area but it looks like a WW 1 Meyer wing without the US device on the front. Maybe some better lighting to show more detail... and one of the guy who knows about WW1 wings and the copies will comment. Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwnorma Posted October 21, 2007 Share #3 Posted October 21, 2007 Flightmedic, Most of these WW1 style wings without the US were made in the 1919-1930 time frame for sale to anyone who wanted an "Aviator Wing" Based on the drop-in safety catch, I would say this wing was made some time in the 20s Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flightmedic Posted October 21, 2007 Author Share #4 Posted October 21, 2007 Thanks, I specialize in Flight nurses and Flight Surgeons mostly. Is this wing rareby any means? It is staying in my collection unless someone has a WWII flight nurse wing they would be willing to trade. What would it be worth approximately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwnorma Posted October 21, 2007 Share #5 Posted October 21, 2007 Flightmedic, The 3" ones usually go for about 150-250, and the smaller ones are somewhat less. A few unscrupulous types have been known to buy these and have a gold "US" added to the shield. Done well, they can be passed as WW1 and can fetch 10 times the above. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flightmedic Posted October 21, 2007 Author Share #6 Posted October 21, 2007 Cwnorma, Thanks again, I appreciate your sharing of knowledge. These are the 3" ones. I prefer to learn history not defile it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Keith Posted October 21, 2007 Share #7 Posted October 21, 2007 "I prefer to learn history not defile it." I am pleased you are in the "hobby". Thank You! BKW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted October 21, 2007 Share #8 Posted October 21, 2007 "I prefer to learn history not defile it."I am pleased you are in the "hobby". Thank You! BKW Better pics would help, but this looks like a cast copy to me. NS Meyer, Link Co, and perhaps the Robbins Co made wings around WWI that were all similar to this pattern. At least NS Meyer made these type of wings after the war with out the US--I once saw a NS Meyer catalog from around the late 1920's-early 1930's that had a very similar design with out the US. To my knowledge, JR Gaunt did not make wings in this pattern, but I could be wrong. One thing to be aware of is that recently it seems to be a more and more common practice for people to add fake hallmarks to cast wings. One other thing, we recently had a discussion about a similar wing a few weeks ago. You may want to do a search for that thread. Funny thing about that wing...many of us felt that it may have been a cast wing, but then it ended up on ebay. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flightmedic Posted October 21, 2007 Author Share #9 Posted October 21, 2007 That's funny I bought it on E-bay last week http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=220154076472 This doesn't happen to be the same one does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flightmedic Posted October 21, 2007 Author Share #10 Posted October 21, 2007 Here are some better pics of the wing close-up. Nessessity isthe mother of invention. I used my 10X glass to take these. Thanks for all of the responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan H. Posted October 21, 2007 Share #11 Posted October 21, 2007 Wow! This would be a first for a Gaunt style pin and catch to look like what I am seeing on this wing. It does NOT look the least bit British to me. I would think that wings made in England would have been hand embroidered on cloth and not metal. I would also expect to see other examples out there in the hands of collectors. I am quite concerned about the authenticity of this wing. Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted October 21, 2007 Share #12 Posted October 21, 2007 I'm not convinced these are WW1 period wings, but I think they are something other than a modern fake meant to deceive collectors. The obverse doesn't do anything to convince me it's original, but I like the back. Nice and smooth - doesn't appear cast. WW2 era US insignia made by the British should have those distinctive pins and fasteners. However, this is not the case with pre WW2 US insignia made by the British. I've pictured a pre WW2 USN wing that I know to be original. It was made by Gaunt and has a US style pin assembly. One thing that struck me was the very large catch assembly it has. The "WW1" wing in this thread also has a rather large catch assembly. Somewhere, I have a pre WW2 DI or two made by Gaunt. These also have US style pin assemblies. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted October 21, 2007 Share #13 Posted October 21, 2007 Here's an original WW1 wing by Link. The Gaunt "WW1" wing doesn't have the detail of this one, but it is a different maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted October 21, 2007 Share #14 Posted October 21, 2007 And the reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted October 21, 2007 Share #15 Posted October 21, 2007 One other point. You'll note my USN wings are also marked "Made in England", while the other Gaunt wing is not. Country of origin was not required to be displayed on import items until the Tariff Act of 1930. So, the Gaunt WW1 wings are probably pre 1930, while my USN wings are post 1930. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cooper Posted October 21, 2007 Share #16 Posted October 21, 2007 The JG Gaunt hallmark is stamped by the photo... is this normal... I have some JR Gaunt insignia and the hallmark is raised... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flightmedic Posted October 21, 2007 Author Share #17 Posted October 21, 2007 Wow thanks for all the resonses. I am learning more than I ever could have expected. Thanks again.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted October 21, 2007 Share #18 Posted October 21, 2007 A couple of points. According to research being done by a friend of mine in England, one of the JR Gaunt sons (I believe it was Albert Gaunt) opened a couple of stores in Canada and New York during the 1930's. At least the store in New York continued to make insignia up until the 1960's. Relatively recently, JR Gaunt was absorbed by Fermin and so it no longer exists. I also believe that the names changed...From JR Gaunt, to JR Gaunt and Sons, To JR Gaunt LTD, etc. over time and that this can be used to broadly date some JR Gaunt made insignia. In particular buttons, which is one of the main things they made besides insignia. Second, JR Gaunt made a WWI badge that was similar to this pattern (which was also made by Robbins). You can see some examples of this particular JR Gaunt made badge in both Terry Morris' and Duncan Campbell's book, and I also believe in the Pinks and Greens book. To my knowledge, I have never seen or heard of the pattern that stated this thread being attributed to JR Gaunt, but that doesnt really PROVE anything. Third, this pattern of wing was used well into WWII. Somewhere in my collection, I have period photographs and year book of civilian pilot instructors from one of the contract flight school wearing similar wings as cap badges. I have also seen and handled an instructor wing for what I believe is Hunter Field that was of this pattern wing (but had an "HF" in the shield rather than the "US"). I also frequently see a version of this wing used as part of a cap badge motif for a US busing/trucking firm that was active in the 1950's. Fourth, I have seen some English made wings with the "American style" catch and hinge, as Kurt demonstrates. It seems that many of the English Commonwealth countries used the more typical triangular hinge during the war, but I have also seen other types of hinge and attachments, including nice "T" hinges, screw posts, lugs, and even a safty pin soldered on the back of a wing. Sometimes they appear original, some times, they are repairs, but I do think Kurt is correct. I agree, the back doesnt really look like a cast wing, but the patina looks funky, the edges of the wing look ground down, and the font seems cast. To be honest, it is hard to know for sure without handling the wing, but...it doesnt look good to me. Finally, I think that the wing sold only for 40$ on ebay is a bad sign. Currently, I know of at least 3-4 big time wing collectors who are bidding up any and all WWI-post WWI wings that show up. I would have expected any one of these guys to bid it up. On the other hand, you may have found a real sleeper. In any case, for 40$, as long as you are happy, dont let us "experts" rain on your parade. Hell, I likely would have thought long and hard about buying them for that! If you can get better quality scans of the hallmarks and front, that would be great? Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pconrad02 Posted October 22, 2007 Share #19 Posted October 22, 2007 Here's my 2 cents: I think the wing is cast, which makes it very suspect. In this enlargement you can see that the stars look a bit like blobs there also seems to be gaps consistent with casting in the vertical bars of the shield, the overall feathering looks a bit soft too. But for $40, does it matter?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flightmedic Posted October 23, 2007 Author Share #20 Posted October 23, 2007 Well for $40.00 it really doesn't matter. However if I am trying to re-sell it I have to at least say it is a "possible fake" I collect flight nurse and aeromedical stuff usually but, when I saw this going for only $40.00 I couldn't resist. So here it is http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=180172485031 bid on it if you like. Thanks for all of your help. I know a whole lot more about nurse and flight surgeon wings than early period pilot wings. You all have educated me in great detail. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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