Jump to content


Photo

"Holy Grail" of aircraft found of San Diego


  • Please log in to reply
34 replies to this topic

#1 History Man

History Man
  • Members
    • Member ID: 25,965
  • 6,944 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles,CA

Posted 27 May 2011 - 09:07 PM

i was looking at the local news and found an article. they US Navy has decided to salvage a WW2 US TBD Devastator torpedo/bomber planes. i hope to see this plane restored and flying again :thumbsup:

TBD Devastator

#2 Jack's Son

Jack's Son

    Deceased

  • IN MEMORIAM
    • Member ID: 8,213
  • 19,660 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 27 May 2011 - 09:27 PM

No easy job.......Let's wish them luck!! :thumbsup:

#3 Darktrooper

Darktrooper
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,393
  • 1,293 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Look in your rear view mirror

Posted 28 May 2011 - 05:06 AM

Whenever the Navy and WWII planes are involved, they dont have a great track record. I know of a few cases where private salvage entities will find old WWII Navy Aircraft and begin salvage efforts, for either the Navy to swoop in and take it after its been retrieved (Hey Thanks! But its still Navy Property!) or order them to leave it where it is.

#4 Cobrahistorian

Cobrahistorian
  • Members
    • Member ID: 5,470
  • 5,237 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hovering Along in a Dust Cloud!

Posted 28 May 2011 - 05:40 AM

Hopefully the other Devastator off Miami can now be raised and restored by those who found it and legally claimed it through international salvage rights.

#5 History Man

History Man
  • Members
    • Member ID: 25,965
  • 6,944 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles,CA

Posted 28 May 2011 - 09:14 AM

i really hope they raise both of them. it would be a great plane as there are sadly none known to exist other than a few. i don think the Navy is going to be a hassel as they are raising it for the museum :thumbsup:

#6 KASTAUFFER

KASTAUFFER

    MODERATOR

  • Moderators
    • Member ID: 105
  • 12,252 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 May 2011 - 09:27 AM

Its too bad that plane has had to sit for an additional 15 years in salt water since they found it to be salvaged.

Kurt

#7 Darktrooper

Darktrooper
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,393
  • 1,293 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Look in your rear view mirror

Posted 28 May 2011 - 11:17 AM

i really hope they raise both of them. it would be a great plane as there are sadly none known to exist other than a few. i don think the Navy is going to be a hassel as they are raising it for the museum :thumbsup:



Yes, they will I've seen it happen. It doesn't matter to the Navy, to them that Plane is still their property. Regardless if it crashed last week or sixty years ago.

#8 Cobrahistorian

Cobrahistorian
  • Members
    • Member ID: 5,470
  • 5,237 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hovering Along in a Dust Cloud!

Posted 28 May 2011 - 12:13 PM

The Navy certainly will go after them if they try to raise the other one. The original finder has been through years worth of court battles, where the Navy has lost time and again, but they still keep appealing it. Their attitude is, they have it, or no one does. I've had a line on an F4U-5N crash for the past twenty years, but haven't even tried because of the BS they put legitimate claimants through. International salvage law basically states "finders keepers", (it's more complicated than that, but that's the basics) and if it's been abandoned there, it's open to anyone. The past 20 years, the Navy has literally come along to certain salvors who raised sunken airplanes and laid claim to the wreck, with no reimbursement whatsoever.

#9 History Man

History Man
  • Members
    • Member ID: 25,965
  • 6,944 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles,CA

Posted 30 May 2011 - 09:16 PM

where is the Corsair? :think: i think the Navy wont be a problem in the raising of the TBD off the coast of San Diego since it is going to the Navy Aerospace Museum in San Diego. the reason the man in Florida has had such a problem is because he was going to either raise it and then sell it to the governent or sell the coordinates to the government. i believe he raised the canopy but it broke. i just cant wait to visit the museum to see it. :thumbsup:

#10 SlaterDoc

SlaterDoc
  • Members
    • Member ID: 45,001
  • 190 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cape Cod, Massachusetts

Posted 31 May 2011 - 08:05 AM

I think one of the driving factors that is many times forgotten is whether or not the wreck is actually a war grave. Until it is positively identified and researched, it's hard to know. Although the Navy has botched it many times, I have to give them the benefit of the doubt until all is known!

#11 Cobrahistorian

Cobrahistorian
  • Members
    • Member ID: 5,470
  • 5,237 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hovering Along in a Dust Cloud!

Posted 31 May 2011 - 03:51 PM

where is the Corsair? :think: i think the Navy wont be a problem in the raising of the TBD off the coast of San Diego since it is going to the Navy Aerospace Museum in San Diego. the reason the man in Florida has had such a problem is because he was going to either raise it and then sell it to the governent or sell the coordinates to the government. i believe he raised the canopy but it broke. i just cant wait to visit the museum to see it. :thumbsup:


The one off of Florida was found and was going to be raised and restored by a well known aircraft owner/restorer. I actually talked to him about it in 1997, shortly after I left the National Warplane Museum. When he inquired whether the airplane had been written off, the Navy demanded to know everything about the wreck and then told him that if he raised it they would seize it. He had a significant amount of time and money invested into the project and offered to give the coordinates to the Navy if they were willing to pay his expenses. It was known that the airplane was not a gravesite and there was no legal claim that the Navy could have made on the airplane other than "well we want it".

The real travesty here is that the airplane could have been raised and restored by now. The salvor was willing to do the restoration and trade it to the National Museum of Naval Aviation for one of the several F6Fs, F4Fs or F4Us they have in storage. Instead, it now has 15 years of additional corrosion and deterioration to contend with.

And no, I'm not saying where the Corsair is. Someday, maybe, I'll actually be able to get it without fear of the Navy taking it.

One can dream, right?

Jon

Edited by Cobrahistorian, 31 May 2011 - 03:53 PM.


#12 KASTAUFFER

KASTAUFFER

    MODERATOR

  • Moderators
    • Member ID: 105
  • 12,252 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 May 2011 - 04:01 PM

What is a shame is I am sure some salvors have probably found Navy aircraft and stripped the parts off and sold them piece-meal to other restorers as "parts" not connected with an "airframe" that can be traced.

Kurt

Edited by KASTAUFFER, 31 May 2011 - 04:03 PM.


#13 Cobrahistorian

Cobrahistorian
  • Members
    • Member ID: 5,470
  • 5,237 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hovering Along in a Dust Cloud!

Posted 31 May 2011 - 05:45 PM

What is a shame is I am sure some salvors have probably found Navy aircraft and stripped the parts off and sold them piece-meal to other restorers as "parts" not connected with an "airframe" that can be traced.

Kurt


I wouldn't doubt it. So much for preserving history. It really is a shame.

Jon

#14 History Man

History Man
  • Members
    • Member ID: 25,965
  • 6,944 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles,CA

Posted 31 May 2011 - 06:01 PM

there was a man who found an aircraft that had ditched/crashed in a nearby lake and he was able to raise it before the Navy found out. when i was asking where the Corsair was i was wondering if it was in water or land? there are so many aircraft that have yet to be raised or restored. there is an F7F Tigercat (night fighter variant) that is sitting in the boneyard of the Chino Air Museum. it is full of cob webs and is still being left out of the museum to rot :crying: there are dozens of tanks, aircraft, and vehicles just lying out there like trash while the museum is trying to restore a B17 which is in a great place right now in the shade near a hangar where it is being put in flying condition. i think that instead of restoring flying condition for some of the more common aircraft they should try and restore the ones that are rotting and that are rare. I would post pics of the boneyard but it would make those aircraft lovers cry :crying: that is why private aircraft collectors should have a chance to restore these warbirds as it seems museums dont give a hoot :pinch:

#15 Cobrahistorian

Cobrahistorian
  • Members
    • Member ID: 5,470
  • 5,237 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hovering Along in a Dust Cloud!

Posted 31 May 2011 - 07:43 PM

there was a man who found an aircraft that had ditched/crashed in a nearby lake and he was able to raise it before the Navy found out. when i was asking where the Corsair was i was wondering if it was in water or land? there are so many aircraft that have yet to be raised or restored. there is an F7F Tigercat (night fighter variant) that is sitting in the boneyard of the Chino Air Museum. it is full of cob webs and is still being left out of the museum to rot :crying: there are dozens of tanks, aircraft, and vehicles just lying out there like trash while the museum is trying to restore a B17 which is in a great place right now in the shade near a hangar where it is being put in flying condition. i think that instead of restoring flying condition for some of the more common aircraft they should try and restore the ones that are rotting and that are rare. I would post pics of the boneyard but it would make those aircraft lovers cry :crying: that is why private aircraft collectors should have a chance to restore these warbirds as it seems museums dont give a hoot :pinch:


Ah, ok, sorry. It's underwater. Fresh water though.

It isn't that museums don't give a hoot, far from it. The problem always boils down to money. While those of us who are aviation enthusiasts would love to see an F7F-3N flying again, restoring a B-17 to flyable condition is a revenue generator for the museum. You can sell rides, publicize the museum and get the word out about what you've got. Once the money starts coming in, you can then prioritize projects like the Tigercat that you really want to do, but can't afford. Right now the R2800 engines that power the Tigercat run in the $80,000 to $100,000 range for a fully functional overhauled engine. The Tigercat's got two of them. R1820s that power the B-17 are smaller engines (in power output and number of cylinders) and are less expensive (granted there are 4 of them!). The fact that Chino has a Tigercat is a VERY good thing. They WILL restore it, and they know what a significant airplane it is. They're probably feeling very similarly to how we do about it sitting outside and once they can fund it, they will.

Jon

#16 History Man

History Man
  • Members
    • Member ID: 25,965
  • 6,944 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles,CA

Posted 31 May 2011 - 08:14 PM

they also have the half of a B29! the front half too. i just hope they move the tigercat before nature destroys it. i will post some pics of the plane for you guys :thumbsup:

#17 KVSkelton

KVSkelton
  • Members
    • Member ID: 7,504
  • 750 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northeastern, TN

Posted 01 June 2011 - 08:02 AM

A question comes to mind, if y'all don't mind. Does the Army not have the same policy of reclaimation as that of the US Navy? This topic brought to mind the P-38F now known as Glacier Girl which was recovered from Greenland (where it was under more than 260 feet of ice) in 1992. I was lucky enough to visit Glacier Girl in Middlesboro, KY when she was being restored. Originally belonging to the USAAF, what kept them from claiming this warbird as the Navy has threatened to do with their aircraft?

To get back on topic, I would love to finally see a TBM Devastator restored and on display to honor those men who flew them.

Edited by KVSkelton, 01 June 2011 - 08:07 AM.


#18 History Man

History Man
  • Members
    • Member ID: 25,965
  • 6,944 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles,CA

Posted 01 June 2011 - 09:49 AM

i also had the luck to see Glacier Girl at the Planes of Fame Air Show in Chino. i guess both services have the same chip in their shoulder about salvaging of planes. :blink: :lol: also at Chino they are restoring an ME109 fighter :w00t: i cant wait to see that fly at onr of the airshows and displayed at the musuem. are there any Buffalos yet or were they all destroyed? :think:

#19 Cobrahistorian

Cobrahistorian
  • Members
    • Member ID: 5,470
  • 5,237 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hovering Along in a Dust Cloud!

Posted 01 June 2011 - 10:25 AM

That's the thing. The Army and later the Air Force have abided by international salvage law, the Navy has not. Those airplanes have been written off as combat or "other" losses and stricken from the records.

Jon

#20 History Man

History Man
  • Members
    • Member ID: 25,965
  • 6,944 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles,CA

Posted 01 June 2011 - 10:27 AM

then whats wrong with the Navy? why do they feel it necessary to control every plane all over the world? :think:

#21 Cobrahistorian

Cobrahistorian
  • Members
    • Member ID: 5,470
  • 5,237 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hovering Along in a Dust Cloud!

Posted 01 June 2011 - 12:39 PM

then whats wrong with the Navy? why do they feel it necessary to control every plane all over the world? :think:


And there's the rub. That's why they've been taken to court and lost, but they keep appealing the decisions.

#22 History Man

History Man
  • Members
    • Member ID: 25,965
  • 6,944 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles,CA

Posted 02 June 2011 - 04:43 PM

i think that the US Navy should let the collectors/museums salvage these warbirds so they can be honored and remembered. :thumbsup:

#23 Johnny Signor

Johnny Signor
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,068
  • 6,759 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

Posted 04 June 2011 - 07:18 AM

I think the Navy figures to let the salvagers do all the work fiinding/raising and then move and and scarf up the "booty" and not have to put out for the expense of the job of the recoveries , and they hope just because they are "The Navy" the salvager will "cower" and give in to them .

I hope the salvagers can one day get a good legal counsil that can get the rules/regs changed into thier favor, there's no sense in these historic and very rare aircraft having to be left underwater after all the time they have , as mentioned one or more could by now already be finished and in a proper display in a museum!!!!
Johnny

#24 History Man

History Man
  • Members
    • Member ID: 25,965
  • 6,944 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles,CA

Posted 04 June 2011 - 09:01 AM

some people raise planes without people knowing. i just hope the Navy can let people raise planes since it is US Military History. a question: if the Navy has a problem with people raising USN planes that how can they raise other countries planes i.e Japan. :think:

PS: i hope you raise that Corsair Jon :thumbsup:

#25 ottodog8

ottodog8
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,430
  • 98 posts

Posted 05 June 2011 - 07:06 AM

I recall a story concerning the bell from the CSS Alabama. It's been a while, so the details are fuzzy, but the gist is this: since the Alabama is sunk off Cherbourg which is a French submarine base, the French won't let anyone dive on it. They do use it to train their divers however. One brought up the ship's bell, it ended up in the hands of an American collector. He offered to trade it to the Navy for some more common items they had (in the Naval Academy Museum I believe). The Navy dickered, counteroffered with some lowball items. Collector said no thanks, I'll keep the bell. Navy swoops in, says it's theirs, takes the bell anyway. This was quite a while ago. I did recently see the guns off the Alabama at the Hunley museum in Charleston, don't know what's going on with the Alabama now.
Steve


1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users