KurtA Posted May 16, 2011 Share #1 Posted May 16, 2011 This was Saturday morning's flea market find. Normally I wouldn't go for such a uniform (being that these are being issued to everyone now), but being that this was tailor-made in 1969 in Hong Kong and has a really nice Far East-made set of ribbons, I picked it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share #2 Posted May 16, 2011 Really nice silk embroidered ribbons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share #3 Posted May 16, 2011 The shoulder strap trim and cuff trim, which is usually yellow nylong on these is bullion thread. And the buttons and collar disks are bright silver finish (there was another thread on the Forum recently discussing the use of silver buttons). The disk not pictured is the Quartermaster branch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABrangerjoe Posted May 17, 2011 Share #4 Posted May 17, 2011 Very nice set of blues! I really like the ribbons! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanmc1114 Posted May 18, 2011 Share #5 Posted May 18, 2011 Interesting that he has the Korean Presidential Unit Citation but no Korean Service Medal or United Nations Korean Service Medal among his ribbons or a bronze star or oak leaf cluster on his national Defense service Medal ribbon. Also, since the Meritorious Service Medal was created in 1969 and his ribbon has an oak leaf cluster, I would imagine the ribbons date to at least the mid-70's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share #6 Posted May 18, 2011 Interesting that he has the Korean Presidential Unit Citation but no Korean Service Medal or United Nations Korean Service Medal among his ribbons or a bronze star or oak leaf cluster on his national Defense service Medal ribbon. Also, since the Meritorious Service Medal was created in 1969 and his ribbon has an oak leaf cluster, I would imagine the ribbons date to at least the mid-70's. From what I understand, this award doesn't have to be for Korean War service. Service in the 7th Infantry Division in Korea from 1953 to the early 70's would rate you the Korean PUC. So, it's quite possible he was in the 7th ID. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted May 18, 2011 Share #7 Posted May 18, 2011 Man, that is one nice uniform! The insignia is gorgeous! Great find! :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicjoy1945 Posted May 18, 2011 Share #8 Posted May 18, 2011 Nice uniform !! Thats a lot of service represented on those chervrons and stripes !! It will be interesting to see his service record as I suspect he qualified for ribbons not shown !?! Maybe a CIB (w/Star) too !?! Don't know... Thanks for showing !! Vic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted May 18, 2011 Share #9 Posted May 18, 2011 It will be interesting to see his service record as I suspect he qualified for ribbons not shown !?! Maybe a CIB (w/Star) too !?! Don't know... Shhh...no one tell Vic that the guy was a Quartermaster...(see post 3) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atb Posted May 18, 2011 Share #10 Posted May 18, 2011 From what I understand, this award doesn't have to be for Korean War service. Service in the 7th Infantry Division in Korea from 1953 to the early 70's would rate you the Korean PUC. So, it's quite possible he was in the 7th ID. The Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal was given for service in Korea from 1966 to 1974. His could be for that service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicjoy1945 Posted May 18, 2011 Share #11 Posted May 18, 2011 Shhh...no one tell Vic that the guy was a Quartermaster...(see post 3) Ahhh....didn't see that post !! :pinch: Still...he may have ended up in QM but served in some other capacity prior !?! Ya never know...I have a dress blues to a Col who served with the 31st Infantry in China qualifying for the Yang Tze ribbon and then ended up in the Finance Corp during WWII !! Ok...I'll shut up !! Vic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted May 18, 2011 Share #12 Posted May 18, 2011 Still...he may have ended up in QM but served in some other capacity prior !?! Ya never know...I have a dress blues to a Col who served with the 31st Infantry in China qualifying for the Yang Tze ribbon and then ended up in the Finance Corp during WWII !! You're right...never say never. I just had to bust your chops though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicjoy1945 Posted May 18, 2011 Share #13 Posted May 18, 2011 You're right...never say never. I just had to bust your chops though... Totally cool with that !! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Vic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanmc1114 Posted May 18, 2011 Share #14 Posted May 18, 2011 From what I understand, this award doesn't have to be for Korean War service. Service in the 7th Infantry Division in Korea from 1953 to the early 70's would rate you the Korean PUC. So, it's quite possible he was in the 7th ID. Good call. I hadn't thought of that. That would also explain the absence of a second award of the NDSM if he did not enlist until after 1954. How many years of service would it normally take to become a Command Sergeant Major? Under my scenario, he would have no more than twenty years by 1974 meaning the insignia on the uniform probably dates to later than that. Hard to imagine someone achieving that rank in less than twenty years, but what do I know? Also, for what it's worth, I found this bit of information on wikipedia concerning U. S. Army Sergeants Major: "Because the Command Sergeant Major represents all of the enlisted soldiers in the command, he or she does not wear the collar insignia of his or her career specialty (e.g., infantry, quartermaster, intelligence, inter alia), but instead wears the Command Sergeant Major (formerly "branch immaterial") collar insignia." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicjoy1945 Posted May 18, 2011 Share #15 Posted May 18, 2011 How many years of service would it normally take to become a Command Sergeant Major?... ..."Because the Command Sergeant Major represents all of the enlisted soldiers in the command, he or she does not wear the collar insignia of his or her career specialty (e.g., infantry, quartermaster, intelligence, inter alia), but instead wears the Command Sergeant Major (formerly "branch immaterial") collar insignia." Hey !! Really good questions !! I assume that it take quite a few years to rise to this rank. This is why I thought that there probably other ribbons to which he may be qualified. For example...I have an Army dress blue uniform, very similar to this, to a Cmd Sgt Maj who served in WWII, Korea and Vietnam (I think) and believe he has an Infantry and U.S. disks on his uniform. It's been a while since I pulled it out, but, from memory, he served in the Pacific during WWII as a machine gunner and was wounded earning a Purple Heart. He received a Bronze Star for valor in Korea and qualified for a CIB with star (second award). I have his medals too along with reseach out of St. Louis. This represents quite a bit of service. Now...I do have several Sgt Maj of the Army uniforms but that a whole different ball of wax... Vic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share #16 Posted May 18, 2011 Agree that the uniform does have some degree of “strangeness” to it. If it was a valuable and high priced Special Forces uniform at a military show, I would be afraid of it. But, based on how I got it (very reasonably at a flea market from a guy with nothing but estate sale schlock) and the fact that there were other items for sale belonging to the guy, which served to authenticate it all to me (CSM rank pins, chevrons, loose ribbons, medals, fatigues, field jacket, Sgt Major Academy patches, etc, etc) I feel very confident it’s legit. If nothing else, it just looks cool. I always enjoy "wierd uniform" discussions here on the forum. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim2 Posted May 18, 2011 Share #17 Posted May 18, 2011 I found this on-line, This could be him? BLEACH, JOE LOUIS CSM US ARMY VIETNAM DATE OF BIRTH: 02/26/1939 DATE OF DEATH: 08/04/2004 BURIED AT: SECTION O2 SITE 4709 BG WILLIAM C DOYLE VET'S MEM CEM 350 PROVINCELINE ROAD WRIGHTSTOWN, NJ 08562 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share #18 Posted May 18, 2011 I found this on-line, This could be him? BLEACH, JOE LOUIS CSM US ARMY VIETNAM DATE OF BIRTH: 02/26/1939 DATE OF DEATH: 08/04/2004 BURIED AT: SECTION O2 SITE 4709 BG WILLIAM C DOYLE VET'S MEM CEM 350 PROVINCELINE ROAD WRIGHTSTOWN, NJ 08562 No doubt it is! The flea market where I found the uniform is located about 45 minutes from where he is buried. Thanks! Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share #19 Posted May 18, 2011 Just occured to me...Based on the above info, he was 30 when he purchased the coat. Too young for a CSM and to already have 15 - 17 years in. So, possibly, later on in the 70's he updated the rank, but possibly not the hashmarks? The Good Conduct ribbon has a silver bar with one knot, which I believe is the 6th enlistment? Perhaps he wore it one last time for his retirement (after not having worn it for a number of years) and just slapped new chevrons on it. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim2 Posted May 18, 2011 Share #20 Posted May 18, 2011 Thats what I thought when I saw the date. He probably purchased it early on, and updated the rank, but not the service stripes. I also found this: http://image1.findagrave.com/photos/2008/5...20389190543.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share #21 Posted May 18, 2011 Thats what I thought when I saw the date. He probably purchased it early on, and updated the rank, but not the service stripes. I also found this: http://image1.findagrave.com/photos/2008/5...20389190543.jpg Great info. Thanks! Too bad he didn't update the hashmarks to reflect his 30 years - the coat would have been quite impressive with 10 of those big hashmarks. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanker1 Posted May 19, 2011 Share #22 Posted May 19, 2011 Nice uniform, and I don't believe it unusual. I purchased dress blues as a Staff Sergeant, upgraded rank as I was promoted up to CSM. The "Hash" marks on mine were one behind when I retired, as I seldom wore the blues and the sleeves had to be opened to add marks. Also new marks were not added one at a time as different places had different marks available, not the same material, and a whole set had to be added to be uniform. The brass is correct for a CSM, they do not wear branch insignia. Twenty plus years service on average to make CSM, a rare few a little less and for most a lot more, depended on branch, fitness, evaluations, etc. I'm guessing he entered after Korea, served in RVN. Since the ribbons are special made, and additions would not match the bar, he may just have went with the old set. Again, not unusual. He may not have worn the blue uniform in several years and it was not required for a retirement formation, thus not fully updated. Most stand retirement formation in class A greens, as I did. Hope this helps a little. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted May 19, 2011 Author Share #23 Posted May 19, 2011 Nice uniform, and I don't believe it unusual. I purchased dress blues as a Staff Sergeant, upgraded rank as I was promoted up to CSM. The "Hash" marks on mine were one behind when I retired, as I seldom wore the blues and the sleeves had to be opened to add marks. Also new marks were not added one at a time as different places had different marks available, not the same material, and a whole set had to be added to be uniform. The brass is correct for a CSM, they do not wear branch insignia. Twenty plus years service on average to make CSM, a rare few a little less and for most a lot more, depended on branch, fitness, evaluations, etc. I'm guessing he entered after Korea, served in RVN. Since the ribbons are special made, and additions would not match the bar, he may just have went with the old set. Again, not unusual. He may not have worn the blue uniform in several years and it was not required for a retirement formation, thus not fully updated. Most stand retirement formation in class A greens, as I did. Hope this helps a little.Jim Thanks for your insight, Jim. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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