Raidercollector Posted October 9, 2007 Share #1 Posted October 9, 2007 I thought I would share this patch with you guys,I bought this at the SOS show a year ago. Came with his dog tag and his other medals from Korea that are current,all were mounted on the backs with Velcro and put in a picture frame.I just pulled out the dog tag and the patch to show you guys. This marine ended up as a Major. I have his research somewear,but have not located it yet. This group has Velcro stuck on all the backs,I have not tried to take it off. What do you guys think,Just leave it alone? and leave it in the frame? Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidercollector Posted October 9, 2007 Author Share #2 Posted October 9, 2007 first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidercollector Posted October 9, 2007 Author Share #3 Posted October 9, 2007 2nd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brig Posted October 9, 2007 Share #4 Posted October 9, 2007 how is the velcro attached? glue or just the adhesive that came originally to the velcro, which tends to be cheap probably for a display Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidercollector Posted October 9, 2007 Author Share #5 Posted October 9, 2007 Brig It has the velcro glue on it. I tried to pull it back and you can see the adhesive Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brig Posted October 9, 2007 Share #6 Posted October 9, 2007 a hair dryer might work...:thinking: not so sure, I'd personally leave it alone, but it's yours to do with as you choose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidercollector Posted October 9, 2007 Author Share #7 Posted October 9, 2007 Brig Well for now its in a glass picture frame. its been there since I have owned it. I will just leave it alone for now. The vet probally had this done .Here is a photo of the other medals in the frame.with the glass off. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremiahcable Posted October 9, 2007 Share #8 Posted October 9, 2007 I'd take it off the dogtag without hesitating. The wool patch I would leave alone for now. The color on them isn't supposed to be very well done. Gary, (GLM), has noted that many marines of the time steared clear of these because if they were caught in the rain the patch and sometimes the uniform was ruined. Nice patch though, makes a nice twin to mine! Jeremiah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLM Posted October 10, 2007 Share #9 Posted October 10, 2007 I'd take it off the dogtag without hesitating. The wool patch I would leave alone for now. The color on them isn't supposed to be very well done. Gary, (GLM), has noted that many marines of the time steared clear of these because if they were caught in the rain the patch and sometimes the uniform was ruined. Nice patch though, makes a nice twin to mine! Jeremiah Nick, Another nice Marine grouping! For some reason, 99% of the WWII Marine felt patches we find today are in mint, unsewn condition, so I'm certain that in the short time Marines wore SSI's, they learned that these felt patches weren't colorfast and avoided wearing them. The few I have in my collection that were acquired directly from the vets and were actually worn have bled all over the place, either from being caught in the rain or washing. Not very attractive in this condition. I agree with Tim and Jeremiah on this one that you would probably be better off leaving the velcro alone and just keep the grouping together intact the way he mounted it. The 1st Marine Division patches in felt are fairly hard to come by. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintageproductions Posted October 10, 2007 Share #10 Posted October 10, 2007 You should definately not mess with it, as you may do more damage removing the velcro. Another thing that everyone seems to be missing is that is not a basic US embroidered on wool 1st Marine Division. Looking at the reverse photos that one is Australian made, and is a very tough variation to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLM Posted October 11, 2007 Share #11 Posted October 11, 2007 You should definately not mess with it, as you may do more damage removing the velcro. Another thing that everyone seems to be missing is that is not a basic US embroidered on wool 1st Marine Division. Looking at the reverse photos that one is Australian made, and is a very tough variation to find. This is a new twist on these felt 1st Mar Div patches I hadn't heard before. I had no idea they were made in Australia and always assumed they were strictly US made, like the non-cheesecloth backed twill versions. I just got done rereading Col. Twining's recollection of designing the patch on the flight from Guadalcanal to Australia with General Vandegrift, where Vandegrift approved the design almost immediately. This recollection is in the 1st Division's "Old Breed" unit history and Twining states that two weeks after arriving in Australia, sometime in December 1942, he placed an order for 100,000 patches with an Australian subsidiary of an American woven embroidery name manufacturer. The woven embroidery name manufacturer connection would certainly rule out the printed versions that we all know are Australian made, so these embroidered on felt examples must be what he ordered?Do you know for a fact, through a vet pickup and attribution, that Nick's patch is the type Twining ordered? If he ordered 100,000 of them, it makes me wonder why more aren't found today. One guess is, like almost all of the other felt patches that were actually worn, that they weren't colorfast and were quickly ruined during the first washing or rainstorm and were promptly replaced with the better known printed, twill and fully embroidered variations.Thanks for this excellent revelation on these non-cheesecloth backed felt patches! Now, I'm also wondering if the twill versions of the 1st and unauthorized early 2nd Marine Division patches without cheesecloth aren't actually Australian made as well?Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintageproductions Posted October 11, 2007 Share #12 Posted October 11, 2007 Gary- If I can find it in the shop. I have one of these on wool that still has the original issue tissue paper wrapped around it. On the twills they are definately US made ones that you have photographed. I have always believed that there was only one maker who made the 1st style 2nd Marine Division on twill. In the literally 1000's of WWII USMC patches I have handled over the years, I can say I have only had about four of those first style 2nd Divisions. They are really rare and sell for good money when we get them. I believe the Wosk Sister's, had a few of these really early on, but they were bought up before the prices started going crazy on their patches. I believe there is a lot of confusion on Marine Corps patches done on wool / felt. I see on Ebay constantly where some one lists a standard US embroidered on wool Marine patch, and they are constantly calling them Australian made. The vast majority of the time, like stated, they are standard US embroidered variations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brig Posted October 11, 2007 Share #13 Posted October 11, 2007 that dogtag appears to be one with a fingerprint on the back. is it just me or is it the earlier fingerprint type tag? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidercollector Posted October 11, 2007 Author Share #14 Posted October 11, 2007 that dogtag appears to be one with a fingerprint on the back. is it just me or is it the earlier fingerprint type tag? Brig You are right. Its the early type with the finger print on it. That is the only one I own that came with the group. I also like all the talk on the first marine patch on wool ,I'm learning myself. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brig Posted October 11, 2007 Share #15 Posted October 11, 2007 BrigYou are right. Its the early type with the finger print on it. That is the only one I own that came with the group. I also like all the talk on the first marine patch on wool ,I'm learning myself. Nick we all had tunnel vision. I'd definately take the velcro off the tag if there's a print on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintageproductions Posted October 11, 2007 Share #16 Posted October 11, 2007 Here's the one with the original tissue paper wrapper. The second photo is the Aussie made 1st Marine Division sitting next to a Australian made 5th Army Air Force squadron size patch. You can compare the embroidery and it is identical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLM Posted October 12, 2007 Share #17 Posted October 12, 2007 Here's the one with the original tissue paper wrapper. The second photo is the Aussie made 1st Marine Division sitting next to a Australian made 5th Army Air Force squadron size patch. You can compare the embroidery and it is identical. WOW Bob, now that's a nice looking minty 1st Mar Div patch! You've probably heard it a hundred times already, but if you ever get tired of looking at it, you can always sell or trade it to me so I can fondle and oogle it. They don't come any nicer! I went through my USMC patches and didn't find any similar embroidery styles for units that made it to Australia, so I'm assuming these Aussie made patches with this specific embroidery style are really tough to come by. Do you suppose the 1st Mar Div and 5th AAF jacket patch were both made by the same manufacturer? After looking closely, I can really see the embroidery styles are identical. The three known Aussie made shoulder size 5th AAF's I have, one on heavy wool, one on tightly woven canvas and one on twill don't come close to the embroidery yours show, and if I didn't know mine were Aussie made, I would guess US made, just because of the machine embroidery on the reverses. Once again, thanks for the Aussie clarification on the 1st patch. I'll certainly know what I'm looking at if I should ever come across one in the future. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidercollector Posted October 12, 2007 Author Share #18 Posted October 12, 2007 Now that we are on aussie first div patches. I have a couple here. are these both made by the same manufacturer .If you look real close you can see on the backs they are very similar. Or is one US an the other Aussie. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidercollector Posted October 12, 2007 Author Share #19 Posted October 12, 2007 Now that we are on aussie first div patches. I have a couple here. are these both made by the same manufacturer .If you look real close you can see on the backs they are very similar. Or is one US an the other Aussie. Nick Here are the backs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintageproductions Posted October 12, 2007 Share #20 Posted October 12, 2007 The embroidered on twill is US made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidercollector Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share #21 Posted October 15, 2007 Now that we are on aussie first div patches. I have a couple here. are these both made by the same manufacturer .If you look real close you can see on the backs they are very similar. Or is one US an the other Aussie. Nick Ok ,Here is another Question. When were the marines wearing there aussie patchs with the red backs,Was it right after Guadalcanel ,and were they put on the greens and dress blues officaly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintageproductions Posted October 15, 2007 Share #22 Posted October 15, 2007 From what I was always taught on the red backed Marine patches, is that they were worn right after Guadalcanal. The veterans of the battles wanted the replacements to know about the blood they had seen. When the higher ups found out about, they were told to remove those from uniforms. Again, this is what was told to me years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidercollector Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share #23 Posted October 15, 2007 Did that apply to the raiders to, I have seen them in there greens with red backing on there raider patches to. Now thats a rare patch. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brig Posted October 15, 2007 Share #24 Posted October 15, 2007 I have also seen Paramarine versions that way, as they, too, fought on Guadalcanal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnicklfritz Posted October 27, 2007 Share #25 Posted October 27, 2007 I was going through the Marine Raider Association's book, "Our Kind of War". While looking at the Raider patch reference in the book, I noticed that the style of patch that is embrodered on wool Id'd here as Aussie made is Id'd as the first official pattern Raider patch and New Zealand made in the book. The silk woven style of patch in the book is Id'd as the 2nd official Raider patch and Aussie made. Any thoughts that this style of embrodery is actually identifying a New Zealand made patch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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