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Shoulder Cords


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#26 collector

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Posted 09 October 2007 - 01:48 PM

The Following are aiguilettes worn by my father, Col. L. G. Ditta, when he was an Asst. Naval Attache in the 50's.

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  • USMC_Shoulder_Braid_2.jpg


#27 collector

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Posted 09 October 2007 - 01:53 PM

The Following are aiguilettes worn by my father, Col. L. G. Ditta, when he was an Asst. Naval Attache in the 50's.

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  • USMC_Shoulder_Braid_3.jpg

Edited by collector, 09 October 2007 - 01:54 PM.


#28 collector

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Posted 09 October 2007 - 01:55 PM

The following is a close-up of the aiguilettes worn by my father, Col. L. G. Ditta, when he was an Asst. Naval Attache in the 50's. Note the EGAs.

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  • USMC_Shoulder_Braid_Detail.jpg


#29 Gil Sanow

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Posted 09 October 2007 - 04:30 PM

Very interesting. Clearly the naval attache's aiguilettes are different from those worn by general's aides. They rather resemble the Army style, but with different tips. Army tips will often have the profile of a Greek helmet on them.

I neglected to mention, because I cannot illustrate them, that early WW1 French C de G fourrageres have the insignia of the unit where they were earned. These are quite rare anymore and would bring a premium. Later ones are plain.

I believe WW1 French C de G fourrageers worn today by the Marine regiments that earned them (5th, 6th) typically have blackened bronze tips, while the Army uses bright tips.

G

#30 QED4

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Posted 09 October 2007 - 05:24 PM

A few comments;
Gil, those are some amazing uniforms I am impressed!
AR 670-1 for 1981 and 1992 both state "The Aiguillette is worn on the right side by the military aide to the President, White House social aides while on duty with the First Family, and officers designated as aids to foreign heads of state. All others wear it on the left."
Just to clarify the Fourrageres, the Croix de Guerre and the Medalle Militaire in this case are awarded for the same thing, if a unit is mentioned in daily battle reports twice they are awared the Croix de Guerre (red and green) and the fourth time it is up graded to the Madalle Militaire (yellow and green) these are the colour of the ribbon on the actual medal. This is similar to the WWII AAF practice of upgrading a certain number of Air medals to the DFC.
The unit devices attached to the WWI Fourrageres are worn by the "plank owners" in the unit the man that come later but are still authorized the wear the Fourragear while in the unit do not wear the devices. Emerson's book Encyclopedia of US Army Insignia lists all the devices and their unit.
I can't find a reference now but I think the USMC Fourragere tips basically match the buttons, bronze for service and gold for dress.

#31 Gil Sanow

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Posted 09 October 2007 - 07:21 PM

I suspect you are correct on USMC tip colors. That had not occured to me.

G

Edited by Gil Sanow, 09 October 2007 - 07:22 PM.


#32 BEAST

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Posted 09 October 2007 - 09:28 PM

Very interesting. Clearly the naval attache's aiguilettes are different from those worn by general's aides. They rather resemble the Army style, but with different tips. Army tips will often have the profile of a Greek helmet on them.

I neglected to mention, because I cannot illustrate them, that early WW1 French C de G fourrageres have the insignia of the unit where they were earned. These are quite rare anymore and would bring a premium. Later ones are plain.

I believe WW1 French C de G fourrageers worn today by the Marine regiments that earned them (5th, 6th) typically have blackened bronze tips, while the Army uses bright tips.

G



Gil,
Is this what you are referring to?


SOUCEK_CdG_CORD.jpg



#33 Allan H.

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 02:50 AM

This thread has really been a good one for collectors to examine as there have been a lot of pieces photographed here that display the points that are trying to be made.
I am blown away by the quality of Col. Ditt's aguillette finials (tips). Note the Eagle, Globe & Anchor embellishments! Now THAT is quality.
Beast, the devices on your WWI Croix de Guerre fourragere are exactly what Gil was adressing. I have one on my grandfather's fourragere who served in the 17th Field Artillery, 2nd Division AEF.

Allan

#34 Gil Sanow

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 06:09 AM

Gil,
Is this what you are referring to?


SOUCEK_CdG_CORD.jpg


Yup! That's a real beauty!

Thanx for showing.

G

#35 MBS

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 04:03 PM

An outstanding thread; thank you all for the GREAT information and photographs.

As promised, I'm posting two better photographs of the shoulder cords I originally asked about.

engcord.jpg

Unauthorized engineers cord!

rwbcord.jpg

At this point unknown!

This solider was all about unauthorized devices on his coat. Hopefully one day I will be able to uncover his story.

Brent

#36 Laury Allison

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 04:27 PM

This solider was all about unauthorized devices on his coat. Hopefully one day I will be able to uncover his story.

Brent


His Army of Occupation Medal ribbon is upside down too. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/ermm.gif

Laury

#37 Stinger Gunner USMC

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 07:53 PM

here is one of my cords. it was framed with a 33 id patch and looks like it has been there quite some time. I got this at an estate sale in IL. the 33ID was a IL natl guard unit
Does anyone know of a unit wearing a cord such as this?
Is this a unit distinguishing cord like the 3rd Inf as was discussed on this thread earlier?

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  • IMGP0252.JPG


#38 Gil Sanow

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 04:17 PM

That's a good question. I have a '50's vintage WO's "pinks and greens" coat with a XX Corps patch. It also has a braided cord in matching colors - red/yellow/blue. I have to think it was some sort of XX Corps award since the colors match. I suspect yours is similar. It might also be for some sort of Honor Guard or perhaps the 33rd Division Band.

Such things may have been very short-lived -- perhaps only during the tenure of a particular commander. If you could find photos showing it being worn, that might help.

G

Edited by Gil Sanow, 11 October 2007 - 04:17 PM.


#39 hhbooker2

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 06:19 PM

An outstanding thread; thank you all for the GREAT information and photographs.

As promised, I'm posting two better photographs of the shoulder cords I originally asked about.

engcord.jpg

Unauthorized engineers cord!

rwbcord.jpg

At this point unknown!

This solider was all about unauthorized devices on his coat. Hopefully one day I will be able to uncover his story.

Brent


BRENT: That was for the Occupation of Japan and German, same colours as the medal and service ribbon. And later the Berling Airlift too! Saw those worn in post-war era. Sarge Booker of Tujunga, California

#40 Gil Sanow

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 07:15 PM

Interesting. I have never encountered the r/w/b cord as shown. Certainly these are the old German natioal colors, and they are the same as the Occupation ribbon. Is there any documentation available anywhere, or is it also unauthorized?

(I am constantly amazed by the tendency of American GI's to find ways to bend the regulations. The US uniform, especially the Army's, was very often not uniform at all! Just look at all of the variations soldiers apparently wore that we find here on USMF.)

G

#41 USMCRECON

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Posted 12 October 2007 - 01:05 PM

I believe that the red, white and black fourragere that you are referring to was actually a Royal Canadian Airforce award but was widely worn by US servicemen serving on occupation duty in Germany after World War II.
We can argue all we want about what was authorized vs not autorized, but these are the "cords" that I can think of off the top of my head.
1. Braided green with red flecks or stripes- French fourragere to the Croix de Guerre
2. Braided green with yellow flecks or stripes- French fourragere to the Medalle Militaire
3. Braided red with green stripes (also shows up as pink) Belgain fourragere to the Croix de Guerre.
4. Orange single cord- Order of Willem Knight 4th class- aka the Dutch Orange Lanyard
5. Braided red white and blue cord- First Special Service Force (once you've handled a couple of real ones, you won't be fooled by a fake)
6. Braided red, white & black cord- RCAF usage but worn unofficially by many US troops on Occupation duty in Germany
7. Red and yellow braided fourragere- Republic of Vietnam (SVN) fourragere to the Cross of Gallantry (awarded and worn though later forbidden by regulation)
8. Red braided cord- Royal Thai Parachute brevet. Forbidden for wear to US forces though occassionally encountered.
The Gold cords are worn by aides to General officers in the army, flag officers in the navy.
Allan


Here are some pictures of the more common ones from my uniform collection. Below are two versions of the French WW-I Croix d' Guerre fourragère. The one on the left (on a French blouse) appears to be made of red and green silk thread while the one on the right (on a Marine uniform) seems to be made of a coarser material, possibly cotton.

FR_CdG_WW1c.JPG FR_CdG_WW1a.JPG



#42 USMCRECON

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Posted 12 October 2007 - 01:11 PM

Top picture is a French Medaille Militaire fourragère (this one is also on a French blouse). Center is a WW-II French CdG fourragère and the Dutch Orange Order lanyard, and bottom is a Belgian WW-II CdG fourragère. Hope this helps.

FR_MM_WW1.JPG

Belg_CdG_WW2.JPG

FrCdG_WW2_Orange_Order.JPG


Edited by USMCRECON, 12 October 2007 - 01:13 PM.


#43 USMCRECON

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Posted 12 October 2007 - 03:51 PM

Top picture is a French Medaille Militaire fourragère (this one is also on a French blouse). Center is a WW-II French CdG fourragère and the Dutch Orange Order lanyard, and bottom is a Belgian WW-II CdG fourragère. Hope this helps.

FR_MM_WW1.JPG

Belg_CdG_WW2.JPG

FrCdG_WW2_Orange_Order.JPG


Sorry, I got the pictures of the last two fourragères reversed. The top one is correctly identified as the French Medaille Militaire. The middle one is actually the WW-II Belgian CdG while the bottom one is the WW-II French CdG and the Dutch Orange Order lanyard. Sorry for getting them out of order.

Edited by USMCRECON, 12 October 2007 - 03:53 PM.


#44 Daan

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 05:46 AM

Anyone seen this cord before? Vietnam era?

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/5341/cordyp1.jpg

#45 Gil Sanow

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 05:22 PM

Can you verbally describe the color? It looks like a solid pinkish magenta to me, but perhaps I am not seeing it correctly due to my screen settings.

If that is what it is, I cannot ID it. It certainly doesn't fit any of the cords illustrated above. Assuming this is a WW2 era Ike, I would have to suggest that someone added it to enhance saleability.

G

#46 USMCRECON

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 10:46 AM

Can you verbally describe the color? It looks like a solid pinkish magenta to me, but perhaps I am not seeing it correctly due to my screen settings.

If that is what it is, I cannot ID it. It certainly doesn't fit any of the cords illustrated above. Assuming this is a WW2 era Ike, I would have to suggest that someone added it to enhance saleability.

G


I've also never seen a fourragère in that color, Gil. I do know that the French issued a Legion d' Honneur fourragère but it was all red and much darker than this one and I've never seen one that faded to this color. Even so, low spots and protected areas would still be a darker reddish color (I also don't recall any US units being awarded the LH fourragère).

Perhaps the origin of this dark pink one is the civilian world. I have seen some band uniforms with various color shoulder fourragères. I even have in my collection an old early 30s American Legion band uniform that has an elaborate yellow/blue fourragère affixed to one shoulder.

Thinking on this a little more, which caused me to edit my original post.....I don't know much about Belgian awards and fourragères other than their CdG but I have seen a Belgian medal with a similar color medium pink/purplish ribbon. I suppose it could be possible that they also had a fourragère for a unit award of that decoration but have absolutely no idea and am wildly speculating in the realm of "whatchamacallit."

Who knows........ http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/think.gif

Edited by USMCRECON, 15 October 2007 - 10:59 AM.


#47 Ricardo

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 11:20 AM

Hi.

One reference board:

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7315/fourragems3.jpg

Best regards,

Ricardo.

#48 Gil Sanow

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 01:26 PM

Ricardo -- are you aware of any US units entitled to wear the WW1 Medal Militaire fourragere? I assume since the above page seems to show fedrl stock numbers that there must have been some. Thanx, by the way, for positively IDing the one I posted.

G

#49 collector

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 05:47 PM

The soldier is standing with my Grandfather David Weir in France, 1917. My grandfather is the jokester in the borrowed beret. I cropped it to allow the cord to show better on upload. I know nothing about it, someone please fill me in.

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#50 Allan H.

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 03:03 AM

The fourragere appears to be a standard WWI French fourragere to the Croix de Guerre without adornment for the unit which usually went on the "monkey fist" above the ferrule.
It appears that the soldier has added some numerals from a WWI German shoulder strap to the cord. Obviously, you can read the "3" and it looks like there is a "1" behind it. So, it COULD be 31st Infantry except that they served in Siberia, so it is more likely that there is a 3rd number on the cord making him one of a number of National Army unit veterans.
Very cool photo. Thanks for sharing it.
Allan


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