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Fake Vietnam Uniforms


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#76 Andrei

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 06:34 AM

If it's glued, it's the work of good ole Charlie Da Glue !

I must say that I got two nice untouched original shirts from Charlie but I also saw his awful glue work on other uniforms won by Beez and other collectors...
Most of the times, the pictures of his auctions tell the story by themselves. Uniforms offered are grotesque and sometimes you can see the glue.

Andrei

#77 atb

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 08:22 AM

I understand your well-reasoned skepticism however there is the possibility, as you pointed out, that this man was enlisted before being commissioned. If that is true, then everything else could be correct. The only thing then that would be slightly suspect in my mind, would be the early-to-mid-60's rifles.

As I understand it, it wasn't unusual for newer personnel to seek salty uniforms such as this one, usually from other people who were leaving the service. Any of the badges could theoretically have been left on, if that was the case.

Also, I've seen authentic field-grade officers' BDU's which had badges that had been re-used and were well-worn.

I have a CWO-1 BDU top which has a substantial number of badges, but then again the soldier was probably formerly enlisted.

"Jungle" fatigues were authorized for purchase and wear by all soldiers in the mid-to-late 1980s until the lightweight BDUs could be fielded. This was due to the discovery in Grenada that the new BDUs were too heavy in hot weather. I bought mine in about 1985 at the Ft. Myer Clothing Sales Store for about $10.00 a set. I seem to remember that all the ones on sale were dated 1969.

#78 hochiminhtrail

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 08:48 AM

Just one question , is there not a way to touch the patch and feel the glue on the back without removing the patch? just by rubbing it to the jacket and feel if there is somethnig hard on the back.

cheers

Alex

#79 Copran

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 08:59 AM

Hi,

When you touch the back side where the patches were glued, you can feel that the material is stiffer. When you put some water on the material, you can clearly see where there is the glue. I confirm "Charlie La colle" had ruined several ARVN camo jackets, he would have sold them for better price without the patches and the glue.



Just one question , is there not a way to touch the patch and feel the glue on the back without removing the patch? just by rubbing it to the jacket and feel if there is somethnig hard on the back.

cheers

Alex



#80 nguoi tien su

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 06:19 PM

HCMT, with Charlie la colle, the glu replace the thread. You can be sure, as Copran says, that the patch will be stiffer and you wonder how it can be on the shirt without being sewn ! Charlie la colle provides the answer... and the glu...

NTS

#81 gwb123

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 09:03 PM

This item has been discussed in depth on the following thread:

http://www.usmilitar...d...t=0&start=0

Please add any specific comments about it to that thread.

However, I wanted say just a couple words from the stand point of this being a Vietnam era fake.

Dress uniforms are very easy to doctor as the the insignia are mostly pin on. Ribbon bars are fairly easy to come up with, as are qualification badges, regimental insignia (DI's), etc. Dress Green uniforms are literally a dime a dozen. Many thrift shops in the US refuse to take them as they are so common and they rarely sell. Even base thrift shops where they can be resold to GI's sometimes get overstocked with them. this makes them excellent base material for the fake artist on a budget.

What undid this one were some glaring errors in the ribbons and decorations. There was an extended discussion trying to rationalize the awards, but in the end the uniform was judged as a fake. The expensive price also turned our experts against it. Also, and maybe it is just me, but I believe the jump oval is in the wrong position.

Attached Images

  • dress_greens_better.jpg

Edited by gwb123, 12 November 2007 - 09:04 PM.


#82 MPage

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 10:32 AM

While not exactly from Vietnam, what's the verdict on this? Is there a limit on the number of jump wings?

http://img103.images...10061sblok5.jpg

It was photoshopped to show each sides' patches. I can't find the other pics though.

#83 gwb123

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 08:15 PM

While not exactly from Vietnam, what's the verdict on this? Is there a limit on the number of jump wings?

http://img103.images...10061sblok5.jpg

It was photoshopped to show each sides' patches. I can't find the other pics though.


Per AR 670-1, 3 February 2005 (extract)

2917. Combat and special skill badges and tabs
a. Listed below in order of group precedence are combat and special skill badges authorized for wear on the Army
uniform.
(1) Group 1. Combat Infantryman badges....
(2) Group 2. Combat Medical badges....
(3) Group 3. Army Astronaut device...Army Aviator badges...Flight Surgeon badges Aviation badges; Explosive Ordnance Disposal badges
(4) Group 4. Glider badge; Parachutist badges ....Pathfinder badge; Military Freefall Parachutist badges .....; Air Assault badge; Sapper, Ranger, and Special Forces tab metal replicas...
(5) Group 5. Diver badges...Driver and Mechanic badge... Parachute Rigger badge

b. Wear of combat and special skill badges.

(2) A total of five combat and special skill badges are authorized for wear at one time; this total does not include
special skill tabs (Ranger, etc.) Personnel may wear only one badge each from groups 1, 2, and 3, as listed in paragraph a, above. Personnel also may wear three badges from group 4, and two badges from group 5, but the total number of badges cannot exceed five. Combat badges have precedence over special skill badges within the same group. For example, if an individual is authorized to wear the Combat Infantry badge and the Expert Infantry badge, the Combat Infantry badge is worn. There is no precedence for special skill badges within the same group. For example, personnel who are authorized to wear the Parachutist and Air Assault badges may determine the order of wear. The above policies apply to the wear of both non-subdued and subdued badges.

2919. Wear of foreign badges
a. Personnel may not wear more than one foreign badge at a time. Only those badges awarded in recognition of military activities by the military department of the host country are authorized for acceptance and permanent wear on
the Army uniform. The only Vietnamese badges authorized for wear are the parachute, ranger, and explosive ordnance disposal badges. Soldiers must obtain approval from HQDA, in accordance with the procedures provided in AR
600822, to accept, retain, and wear a foreign badge.

Technically the wearer of this uniform was in violation of the regulation with having two foreign parachutist badges on his uniform. However, it was my experience that this was not strictly enforced. After Vietnam it was not unusual to see a uniform with both Thai and ARVN parachutist wings. I have seen uniforms with three foreign badges, but this was seen as excessive.

#84 steve

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 10:30 AM

As Gil pointed out the jump oval is not centered and for look where the CIB is located....not even close to where it belongs. I would be centered over the ribbon bars.

#85 gwb123

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 06:23 PM

Here is a questionable item currently on eBay:

SPECIAL FORCE UNIFORM SET ESTATE " 5th GREEN BERETS

eBay Item: 130184214751

It features a First Pattern Jungle Jacket with a mix of color and subdued insignia.

The uniform just does not ring true. For starters it is an Extra Small Regular. I am sure someone will take the time to tell me that somewhere in the Army they ran into a First Sergeant who was small enough to fit into this uniform. However, in most cases, this is a size more appropriate to an 18 year old.

It is also common for repro artists to pick up less common uniforms in smaller sizes and "jazz" them up with patches.

I am also skeptical about the combination of a subdued name tape and a color US Army tape. An NCO of that rank would have been more likely to have matching name tapes. The US Army tape, while the type that was issued with this uniform, looks to have been resewn with the same stitch used for the patches. Because the original color tapes were so flimsey to begin with, they were rarely switched from uniform to another. There is a marked difference in the amount of wear between the two tapes, with the name tape looking much newer. Printed tapes tended to fade very quickly.

While it is hard to tell from the photos, the sleeve chevrons do not look to have the same level of wear as the rest of the uniform. This is often conveniently explained away from "the owner was promoted".

For those who are thinking I am being too skeptical about the uniform, the accompanying accessories offer further suspicion.

The helmet is looking very contrived, and just happens to have a pack of crushed Marlboro's. Any E-8 I would have known would have removed the pack as trash before putting away the helmet.

The real corker is the beret. This has all the hallmarks of something recently produced for the tourist market in Saigon. The shape is wrong, the workmanship is poor, the flash is a current reproduction and the A-L stamp is completely spurious.

Currently the bidding is low on this lot, about $63. One could argue that the value of the shirt (minus patches) and the field gear would justify the price, but that is about it. I suspect that this is a lot of marginally related items thrown together to entice a sale.

Attached Images

  • SF_1.jpg
  • SF_2.jpg
  • SF_5.jpg


#86 gwb123

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 06:24 PM

And the beret from the same "estate" lot....

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  • SF_3.jpg
  • SF_4.jpg


#87 Spike

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 07:51 PM

Beret is fake...I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that it's made from an A-L shirt....lame.

#88 beezman

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 01:12 AM

While the beret is certainly fake, the combination of a subdued name tape and a color US Army tape is not a problem.
The subdued name tapes were authorized on 10 April 1965, and the subdued US Army tapes became mandatory on 14 July 1966. It is not uncommon to see a mix of those during the transition period. See Stanton's US Army of the VN War page 50 for a Green Beret wearing this combination of tapes.

#89 cbuehler

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 08:33 AM

With regard to the 1st pattern jacket, while I agree that anything SF is a likely candidate for fakery and this jacket is may be one of them, there is actually nothing about this jacket that is outright wrong. The only way to be sure is to have it in hand and examine the inside of the jacket and sewing of the patches closely. All of us who are more experienced in collecting these will be able to detect the typical signs, but even this is no absolute.
I have seen many original jackets with re-used and mixed insignia applied at different times. One just has to go with a gut feeling in some cases.

CB

#90 gwb123

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 09:47 PM

While the beret is certainly fake, the combination of a subdued name tape and a color US Army tape is not a problem.
The subdued name tapes were authorized on 10 April 1965, and the subdued US Army tapes became mandatory on 14 July 1966. It is not uncommon to see a mix of those during the transition period. See Stanton's US Army of the VN War page 50 for a Green Beret wearing this combination of tapes.


For those who do not have a copy of Stanton's book, I have posted the photo below.

The concern on this uniform is not that there are mixed tapes of both colored and subdued. More to the point is that you have an almost pristine name tape and a very beat up and worn nylon US Army tape on this uniform.

Look at the photo below. While the name tapes are mixed colored and subdued, both are in relatively the same level of wear. The color US Army tape is a machine embroidered cotton replacement that is much more durable than the original nylon tapes. The second photo, also from the same page of the same book, shows other NCOs wearing similar US Army tapes. Apparently these were readily available in Vietnam.

The nylon US Army tape on this suspect uniform has been resewn. It is highly doubtful that an NCO of this rank would put an item of such poor condition on a newly sewn uniform.

The uniform above has several red flags on its own, but combined with the bogus headgear it really is a suspect item. Based on my experience, I would avoid something like this.

Of course, not everyone agrees. Current bidding for the lot is $480. Curiously, the current high bidder has ZERO feedback.

Attached Images

  • Stanton_Army_tape.JPG
  • Stanton_Army_Tape_B.JPG

Edited by gwb123, 20 December 2007 - 09:50 PM.


#91 korea drab

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Posted 02 January 2008 - 05:23 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/...emZ260197164781
So after the last "ruined" large size M-65 jacket of the door gunner is that another pathetic case?
If so making money is taking over preservation,i am laughing and wondering......or is this one for real?
Sorry but Nam jackets are still(but soon) my main thing.
KH

#92 doyler

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Posted 02 January 2008 - 05:42 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/...emZ260197164781
So after the last "ruined" large size M-65 jacket of the door gunner is that another pathetic case?
If so making money is taking over preservation,i am laughing and wondering......or is this one for real?
Sorry but Nam jackets are still(but soon) my main thing.
KH


That M65 is definately ruined.Quite laughable. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbdown.gif

#93 gwb123

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 06:45 PM

That M65 is definately ruined.Quite laughable. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbdown.gif


Well actually, this is a repro of a Hollywood costume worn by Robert De Niro in the 1976 movie Taxi Driver. From that aspect, it is a very nice repro if you are looking for movie memorabilia. If you want to blame anyone for a lack of authenticity blame the costume artist on the movie.

By the way, there seems to be a thriving business in reproduction movie costumes. Sometimes they are labelled as such and sometimes they are presented as the real thing.

For those so inclined, you can also buy the "King Kong Company" patch on its own. Military movie memorabilia is its own subculture.

Attached Images

  • King_Cong_Company_3.jpg
  • King_Cong_Company_2.jpg

Edited by gwb123, 08 January 2008 - 06:48 PM.


#94 gwb123

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 06:56 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/...emZ260197164781
So after the last "ruined" large size M-65 jacket of the door gunner is that another pathetic case?
If so making money is taking over preservation,i am laughing and wondering......or is this one for real?
Sorry but Nam jackets are still(but soon) my main thing.
KH


For those of you who missed it, the "Door Gunner" jacket was discussed in depth on the thread:

http://www.usmilitar...;hl=door gunner

Please add any specific comments to that thread. The biggest red flag is the obvious post war Door Gunner tab.

Attached Images

  • 1_CAV_Door_Gunner_Germany_5.jpg
  • 1_CAV_Door_Gunner_Germany_4.jpg
  • 1_CAV_Door_Gunner_Germany_3.jpg
  • 1_CAV_Door_Gunner_Germany_2.jpg
  • 1_CAV_Door_Gunner_Germany.jpg


#95 MattD

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 09:17 AM

I think you are quoting the wrong section of AR 670-1 (hope I got that right). This is for the dress uniform.

In the mid 1980s, the US Army no longer allowed the wearing of foreign awards on the BDU/fatigue uniform. I think it was ignored in some units overseas.

If that uniform is dated after 80s-I would be suspect

My .02....Matt


Per AR 670-1, 3 February 2005 (extract)

2917. Combat and special skill badges and tabs
a. Listed below in order of group precedence are combat and special skill badges authorized for wear on the Army
uniform.
(1) Group 1. Combat Infantryman badges....
(2) Group 2. Combat Medical badges....
(3) Group 3. Army Astronaut device...Army Aviator badges...Flight Surgeon badges Aviation badges; Explosive Ordnance Disposal badges
(4) Group 4. Glider badge; Parachutist badges ....Pathfinder badge; Military Freefall Parachutist badges .....; Air Assault badge; Sapper, Ranger, and Special Forces tab metal replicas...
(5) Group 5. Diver badges...Driver and Mechanic badge... Parachute Rigger badge

b. Wear of combat and special skill badges.

(2) A total of five combat and special skill badges are authorized for wear at one time; this total does not include
special skill tabs (Ranger, etc.) Personnel may wear only one badge each from groups 1, 2, and 3, as listed in paragraph a, above. Personnel also may wear three badges from group 4, and two badges from group 5, but the total number of badges cannot exceed five. Combat badges have precedence over special skill badges within the same group. For example, if an individual is authorized to wear the Combat Infantry badge and the Expert Infantry badge, the Combat Infantry badge is worn. There is no precedence for special skill badges within the same group. For example, personnel who are authorized to wear the Parachutist and Air Assault badges may determine the order of wear. The above policies apply to the wear of both non-subdued and subdued badges.

2919. Wear of foreign badges
a. Personnel may not wear more than one foreign badge at a time. Only those badges awarded in recognition of military activities by the military department of the host country are authorized for acceptance and permanent wear on
the Army uniform. The only Vietnamese badges authorized for wear are the parachute, ranger, and explosive ordnance disposal badges. Soldiers must obtain approval from HQDA, in accordance with the procedures provided in AR
600822, to accept, retain, and wear a foreign badge.

Technically the wearer of this uniform was in violation of the regulation with having two foreign parachutist badges on his uniform. However, it was my experience that this was not strictly enforced. After Vietnam it was not unusual to see a uniform with both Thai and ARVN parachutist wings. I have seen uniforms with three foreign badges, but this was seen as excessive.



#96 MattD

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 10:00 AM

Valery

Do the patches look like they have been on there for awhile? (Impressions of patches on inside of uniform)

I think the uniform could be legit.

I served in the 82nd Airplane Gang in the 80s. At the time , I could wear Jungle fatigues, ERDL , Poplins (what we called the USMC/RDF ERDL) and BDUs (heavy weight and new rip stop)

The Jungle uniforms could be bought at Clothing sales $10 a set. They were just brought out of storage and sold. I seen a Brandnew ERDL shirt at Clothing Sales in the 90s !!! The workers didn't know any difference. To them a jungle shirt is a jungle shirt.

I'm quite sure some Poplin Jungle fatigues could have survived in storage until them. I was issued VN dated jungle boots in 2000.

This guy could have easily earned all of those badges. Jump school (3-4 weeks, depending on class sizes) and Ranger school (2-3 months), Air Assault wings (10-day course) and EIB (Expert Infantry badge) 1-2 week training and 1 week testing. Not too much time considering College/ROTC.

The ROTC and Military Academy students got priority during summer classes and remember they still had to attend Infantry Officers Basic Course (IOBC) at Fort Benning prior to going to units. At Fort Benning, they could attend Airborne school or Ranger school and even test for EIB-if one of the Infantry units are running it.

I recall alot of My Lts being all badged out-including Jump master and being relatively new.

I reused alot of my patchs from uniform to uniform and the older NCOs gave me patches as the changed duty stations, I'm sure Officers do the same thing.

I guess really look at what the guy was asking for it and would he go through all the trouble-especially since it isn't a VN item (Air Assault wings were authorized 1974). Unless he was just stupid or didn't know the difference.

Enuf of my rambling..................Matt



Valery, I know what you are saying, but just from the photos I have doubts about this one.

VN issue jungle jackets were indeed worn in the 1980's by units that could expect service in hot weather climates. And I have seen them from the 82nd from that period. But by that time period the remaining issue stocks were ripstop, not poplin. Its possible someone could have bought a poplin jacket from a surplus store and updated it with their current insignia. This was often done by ROTC students, but I think a less common practice for active duty soldiers.

What bothers me is the very uneven wear on the insignia. The name and US Army tape seem to match, but that is about it. The shoulder sleeve insignia look like they have been resewn and transferred from another uniform. This is supposed to be for an officer... are we to say he could not afford $2 to $3 for new patches?

None of the qualification patches match. Granted, they could all have been earned at different times. The Airborne wing looks to be made on 100% cotton cloth, while the EIB is on synthetic. For a young officer in the 1980's most of the insignia available would have been on the OG-107 synthetic blend material. (And yes, I am sure some of the old cotton insignia were still around.)

The other thing that bothers me... it took time to earn all of these qualifications. I knew soldiers who earned their Airborne Wings and Ranger tab while in ROTC and had them before they were commissioned. I also knew others that earned an Air Assault badge. But normally they did not have all three before going on active duty. And usually the EIB would be earned on active duty while actually assigned to an Infantry unit. To my mind in most cases you would not see this number of qualification badges until the officer had been in long enough to be promoted to 1st Lieutenant, which I believe is about 2 years.

The exception to this would be a soldier who served as an Enlisted Man before accepting his commission. But if that were the case, I would still expect to see the insignia looking closer for the level of wear and tear.

I think this one fails muster.



#97 gwb123

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 10:26 AM

I think you are quoting the wrong section of AR 670-1 (hope I got that right). This is for the dress uniform.

In the mid 1980s, the US Army no longer allowed the wearing of foreign awards on the BDU/fatigue uniform. I think it was ignored in some units overseas.

If that uniform is dated after 80s-I would be suspect

My .02....Matt


Nice catch! I went back to AR 670-1, 2005 and did a closer look at the section on BDU's.

Section 3-4 K on page 18 states: "Foreign badges are not authorized for wear on these uniforms."

The photo of the uniform we are discussing seems to have been dropped from the forum. But it had a number of badges, and as I recall three foreign jump wings.

This regulation change may have gone into effect after I left the Army. I remember seeing foreign jump wings on BDU's, to include ARVN, Thai and West German. I bet this regulation went over like a lead balloon with a lot of the career soldiers with overseas experience. And I am equally willing to bet that it was widely ignored.

The above citation appears to be valid for dress green uniforms.

#98 Guest_mflees_*

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 07:54 PM

Well actually, this is a repro of a Hollywood costume worn by Robert De Niro in the 1976 movie Taxi Driver. From that aspect, it is a very nice repro if you are looking for movie memorabilia. If you want to blame anyone for a lack of authenticity blame the costume artist on the movie.

By the way, there seems to be a thriving business in reproduction movie costumes. Sometimes they are labelled as such and sometimes they are presented as the real thing.

For those so inclined, you can also buy the "King Kong Company" patch on its own. Military movie memorabilia is its own subculture.


Hi,
Does anyone know where I might be able to find the paratrooper patch on Travis Bickle's jacket in Taxi Driver? I've been searching for a really long time. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike
[email protected]

#99 vintageproductions

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 09:06 PM

We have the Taxi Driver movie patch sets on our website. They are under the MASH CO header. If you hace any other questions please feel free to ask.

#100 khwchan888

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 06:24 AM

What is the forum's view on put together uniform using period uniform and insignia. Thus everything is manufactured in period but all put together.


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