Another Odd 5" Jet Pilot Knife: The MMB Products Blade

[Charlie Flick]

Gentlemen:

I have always had a soft spot for the Jet Pilot Knives. One of the fun aspects for collectors of these blades is that there is quite a bit of variety to be found in the makers, the blade lengths and markings, and the sheaths. Thus, it is always enjoyable to run across an example that I have not encountered before.

That experience happened to me recently when I ran across this knife.



In all respects, except one, it appears to be a conventional USGI 5 inch Jet Pilot knife.



So, how is it any different from the thousands of other JP knives commonly encountered? Well, this one is pommel-marked as having been made by “MMB” in July, 1993 (7-93).



Who was/is “MMB”? Frankly, I had never heard of any company known as MMB as a supplier of the Jet Pilot knives or, indeed, as a knife maker of any sort.

The first clue was the sheath which was ink stamped on the back side with the information required by the Specification for this knife model, MIL-K-8662E. Paragraph 3.7.1 of the Spec requires that the sheath be marked with the name of the manufacturer. As shown below the sheath reveals the manufacturer to be “MMB Products”.



In trying to find out more about MMB Products, I learned that a company known as MMB Products Corp. had been issued a CAGE Code. A CAGE Code (Commercial and Government Entity Code) is a 5-digit number that acts as a unique identifier assigned to suppliers for various government or defense agencies. MMB Products was assigned CAGE Code OX4P3 in October, 1993. It was listed as being located at 249 E. Georgia Ave., Sebring, OH 44672. Is this company the same “MMB” marked on the knife and sheath? I don’t know, but the 1993 timing may be more than coincidental.

So is this a USGI Jet Pilot knife? Again, I don’t know. Having collected US blades for years and never running across one like this before, or even hearing of one before, suggests to me that if it is USGI it must have been a very small contract numbers-wise. The knife and sheath appear to me to be the equal in quality of the Ontarios and late Camillus knives so it is not a cheapo knock-off.

If any member here has any further information on this knife or “MMB” I would be pleased to hear about it. While I suspect that it is genuine USGI I can't say so without further evidence. In the meantime it will remain one of the oddities in my collection.

Regards,
Charlie Flick

[bayonetman]

Charlie, I don't know and as of a couple of years ago neither did Frank. I really can't imagine why some obscure company would be issued a contract for something like this unless it was for some sort of Military Assistance Program for another country, but even then I would assume Ontario would have supplied them. Another one of those weird items that pop up from time to time.

 

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopi...6/post/1830187/

[SKIPH]

Hey Gang! Ok, let me get it straightened out. At least in my mind. I have a few JPK's,( a couple of Camillus 5") but don't really collect them. These are what's now out there-historically! A) Marble's 6", Camillus 6", Camillus 5" blade marked, Camillus 5" pommel marked, Utica 5" pommel, Ontario 5" pommel, NMC 5" pommel, and now MMB 5" pommel. NMC, and MMB sure look legitimate issue specification wise, and have the correct sheath w/ proper info stamped on it. Not counting the many repro knock-offs, and civilian variations , JPKs are fast becoming a collecting area in it's own right. Guess I'd better start concentrating a little more in that area, before they get insane prices. What have I missed? SKIP

[Charlie Flick]

Thanks for your comments, Gary. From the link it looks like there is at least one other example of the MMB blade out there somewhere.

 

Skip, don't forget about the Milpar knives. Also, Camillus made some JP knives for the commercial market that were kind of neat, both 5 and 6 inch plated versions, the "platform" version that had no fuller, the screw on and peened on pommels, etc. Not USGI but interesting nonetheless. Also of interest is the Camillus 5 inch dual marked version.

 

Regards,

Charlie Flick

[SKIPH]

Charlie-Thanks! Forgot about MILPAR. SKIP

[sactroop]

I remember seeing a knife like this on eBay maybe about a year ago. Only remember it was pommel stamped without a standard date code and that it was three letters. It may turn out to be something similar to the MK2 MSR knives of the mid 80's??? :think: It does look like a well made knife compared to some of the out right copies of the JPSK. I'm not crazy about the way the pouch snap was set. :thumbdown: Oct 1993 would have me believe that the knives wouldn't have a date preceding 10 93 not sure what to make of 7 93. :think: I would agree for the time being it at least belongs in the curio department. :thumbsup:

 

SKIP I think under the 6" Camillus we can add screw pommel and peened pommels. (Never mind Charlie beat me to it)

[gunbarrel]

These are what's now out there-historically! A) Marble's 6", Camillus 6", Camillus 5" blade marked, Camillus 5" pommel marked, Utica 5" pommel, Ontario 5" pommel, NMC 5" pommel, and now MMB 5" pommel.

 

Did you guys see the Utica Frank has for sale? It's No. 582 here:

 

http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/knife_list_19.htm

 

C'mon LOTTO! :w00t:

[sactroop]

Did you guys see the Utica Frank has for sale? It's No. 582 here:

 

http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/knife_list_19.htm

 

C'mon LOTTO! :w00t:

 

 

With my luck it will go the day before I win.

[elbertson]

Charlie,

I'm Gary_M over on knifeforums, I started the thread there and that's my knife. I still haven't found any solid information on MMB, but still very strongly believe that if these knives weren't made for military issue, then they are surely the finest close to specs knockoffs I've ever seen. After realizing that Frank T. hadn't found anything on them with the amount of effort he likely put into it, I all but resigned researching it. I am still very much interested in finding out the whole story on them, just got tired of hitting brick walls. Too many times I did an internet search only to have that thread I started come up as the only lead!

If you or anyone comes up with anything on MMB, please don't hesitate sharing it here. I certainly will do the same.

[SKIPH]

gunbarrel-That's where I was reminded about the Uticas. Gary has four new interesting articles on bayonets too. SKIP

[Charlie Flick]

If you or anyone comes up with anything on MMB, please don't hesitate sharing it here. I certainly will do the same.

 

Hi Gary:

 

Nice to hear from you. Looks like you and I have 100% of the known examples of this blade. Ha! No, I am sure that there are others out there in supply rooms or being carried by airmen who don't give a hoot who MMB is, only that they have a reliable blade if need be.

 

Sactroop makes an apt comparison with the Mark 2 blades made by MSI. For years they were a complete mystery until Frank T. cracked the code on them. Perhaps that will happen here. For the time being your earlier thread and this one will have to serve as points of reference, limited as they are, for anyone searching the 'net for info on these blades.

 

Regards,

Charlie Flick

[SKIPH]

Just for fun, I checked out my 2000 Price Guide for an MMB. None listed! But, I found that the NMC was valued between $150-$200. Those are peaking my interest. Around here JPKs are never more than $15-$25, unless it's 1960's, or 6" vintage. I'm gonna start looking for both MMB & NMC(have seen NMCs), before the prices get insane. SKIP

[Frank Trzaska]

Two very nice knives you guys have, still working on this one. It never ends does it.

 

I THINK Charlie has the correct company listed but did they make them or just supply them? I don't have any listing of MMB in 1993 contracting with the government nor with the old Camillus records.

 

All the best

Frank Trzaska

[QED4]

Having way too much time on my hands I put the address you had for the company in Sebring OH into Google Earth just to see what was there. I was quite surprised when it came up, it is a large industrial type building with a good part of the roof gone due to a fire. There may have only been a few samples made before the plant burned and they defaulted on the contract which may be why you never hear about the company or see the knives. I also checked the Sebring Yellow Pages and there was no listing for them. Some one with even more time on their hands may want to contact the Sebring news paper or library to see what happened to the company.

[elbertson]

Sebring Plastics, makers of Marx toys, occupied the building when it burned...so apparently the address is no longer valid for MMB.

[Survival]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...RK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

 

 

 

Here is another one dated 12/92

[DSchlagan]

Survival, Nice catch:

 

 

Note that all pommel marks are hand indexed stamped.

[DSchlagan]

In comparing the index marks with the first example, something a little strange just became apparent:

Although the size is quite different, both are using an upside down "W" for the second "M".

 

Both sets of marks looks like they may have been struck at the same time, meaning that the individual letters were clamped into a single head ...and they didn't have another "M" in the index set.

 

On the other hand, is there any chance that these could 'supposed' to have been marked "MWB"? The stamping on the back of the sheath is a little fuzzy, for the second letter, for me to read accurately. Prolly doubtful of being mis-marked over that time frame, though.

[elbertson]

In comparing the index marks with the first example, something a little strange just became apparent:

Although the size is quite different, both are using an upside down "W" for the second "M".

 

Both sets of marks looks like they may have been struck at the same time, meaning that the individual letters were clamped into a single head ...and they didn't have another "M" in the index set.

 

On the other hand, is there any chance that these could 'supposed' to have been marked "MWB"? The stamping on the back of the sheath is a little fuzzy, for the second letter, for me to read accurately. Prolly doubtful of being mis-marked over that time frame, though.

 

I thought of the second M possibly being an inverted W stamp being set wrong, but seeing this latest knife with different size letters sort of counts that out. I don't see the same mistake as being likely to be repeated.

I just dug my knife out and checked the sheath stamping again...definitely MMB.

So far at that address, I've found a Mahoning Valley Plastics that was there before Sebring Plastics, and started business in 1995, so MMB was likely the business there just before them, and for whatever reason vacated the premises. I've been in contact with someone from the Sebring Historical Society. They said that they believe that the fire there actually spared that one building while burning others over 15 acres.

So far, MMB hasn't rung any bells, and it's been suggested that maybe I'm reading it wrong.

 

I just spoke with a nice lady from the Sebring Chamber of Commerce and explained what we are looking for. She promised to look into it and get back to me. She did say that it didn't ring a bell for her, either. Keep your fingers crossed.

[elbertson]

Well, I was debating whether to keep updating this in bits and pieces before I got to the brick wall I've been anticipating...but then I thought if I keeled over tonight, it would only be right to pass on what I have so far first.

The lady from the Historical Society has been in contact with another lady on their end, who emailed her and said that she had spoken to Mike, a former employee of MMB. She told her "I spoke to Mike today, he has one of the knives. He said the business was making knives for the military". To me, that sounds like they might have actually produced the knives in house, and that maybe they either had a contract, or were anticipating one?

I asked her to pass along my email address to Mike so that I might ask him some questions, should he be willing to go along with it. Let's hope he's not too shy.

 

Still hope to hear back from the lady at the Chamber of Commerce....

 

Geez, Charlie...you got the wheels spinning again in my head. Hope the bearings hold out...

[Charlie Flick]

Gary:

 

Congrats on making the progress you have so far. Good stuff. If this pans out I am going to nominate you for the CSI award for Best Detective Work.

 

This thread has sniffed out more nuggets of info on these MMB knives than has ever before been publicly disclosed to collectors. Let's hope your work (and that of the other contributors here) on this ends up with confirmation that MMB was the manufacturer and some details on how many were made, what happened to the company, why are they so oddly marked on the pommel, etc.

 

Regards,

Charlie Flick

[DSchlagan]

This whole investigation has had me thinking, for a while now, if MMB Products Corp. would have been in business only 10 years later, that Google would have spit it out in 0.2 seconds. Kind of amazing, actually...

I wondered if the "Thomas Register" might be a source, but it seems like only current business listings carried.

 

Your old school gumshoeing seems to be progressing well. Thanks, Gary.

Keep the bearings inside their races and lube with a little ethanol, should the need arise.

 

And speaking of bearings: there's an outfit called Micro Miniature Bearing Co. (DBA MMB BEARINGS) that came up; GOV supplier and the whole nine - including a CAGE Code: 5S039.

[DSchlagan]

So far at that address, I've found a Mahoning Valley Plastics that was there before Sebring Plastics, and started business in 1995, so MMB was likely the business there just before them, and for whatever reason vacated the premises.

More research on the DLA turned up: : "MMB PLASTICS CORP", P O BOX 485 CANFIELD OH 44406-0485;

CAGE Code: 0WRS7 (first is zero). Same street address, otherwise, as MMB Products Corp.

Appears as though they may 'rolled' several different DBA's for that plastics company.

 

One exception:

MMB Plastics:

Date CAGE Code Established: 4/1/1993

Last Updated: 3/1/2004

 

MMB Products:

Date CAGE Code Established: 10/6/1993

Last Updated: 10/25/1993

[Frank Trzaska]

Outstanding! Keep at it guys, don't stop now.

 

All the best

Frank Trzaska

[elbertson]

Thanks for the encouragement, guys. I sure hope all this pans out. I feel like I've been knocking door to door...ever visualize some place you've never been to before, just from reading and talking to people? Well, that's Sebring for me!

Wouldn't suprise me if that bearing company had a connection...wouldn't be the first company to shoot off in a strange direction on a project for awhile when they saw a hole they could fill (like typewriter carbines).

 

I just read the MMB Plastics post before I hit reply...seems obvious that address has been set up for plastics for awhile now... :think: