High end suspect "fake" Balloon wings

[pfrost]

These are some wings that are currently getting a fair amount of bid attention on eSlay. I believe that these are some rather high quality fakes that could fool a lot of people and are worth at least a bit of discussion. They are the transition balloon pilot wings that were worn after WWI to about 1921 or so. In general, this is a very rare pattern.

 

First, they do look very well made. They have lots of detail, handsome feathering, and excised "sterling" mark. They clearly look like they are die struck, rather than cast.

 

On the other hand, while the pattern is very similar to known wings, it is not an exact match. Some points for discussion:

 

Overall front:

the overall design of the wing is rather flat and one dimentional (except for the balloon of course). The wing is almost perfectly symetrical. The individual feathers show some sign of wear, while the high points (see shoulder of wing) do not. The US is rather crude and uneven and no way matches the quality of the rest of the wing. The patina seems to have been added.

 

These are problems because a die made in the 1920's would have been hand carved. This usually gave the wing a 3-D impression. I suspect that this die was made using laser and computer technology, and as such has given it a more flat, 1-D look and feel.

 

Overall back. The pin catch and hinge are more typical of later made wings and dont really match the assembly that would not have been used during the 1920's. The sterling mark has illogical wear (notice the "smooshed" "S" and "ING" at end of the hallmark, whilst the "TERL" are clear and sharp. Also, the center circle is almost perfect. This "circle" was part of the top die face, and intended to transmit the force into the bottom die face to get the detail of the balloon. You see this on period wings, but usually it isnt the perfect circle, nor this deep shown here. Imagine trying to hand cut a perfect 1/2 circle in die.... To me, this look like laser-cutting and post-hoc addition of "wear".

 

The patina on the back shows classic chemical aging signs. Uneven, splotchy, with different colours, ranging from gray to almost green. In fact, I wouldnt be shocked if this wing wasn't even made of sterling silver.

 

FInally, this wing just has the feel of many of the fake police badges and other fake insignia that seem to come out on a regular basis. I hear rumors that a guy in Arizona makes these, but I don't know that for sure.

 

Anyway, I don't think I would have this wing in my collection--and for sure not at the price it is likely to sell for on eScrew.

 

Patrick

[John Cooper]

Hi Patrick,

 

I too have been watching this wing - although not my era of wing collecting as you know but interesting. If I am not mistaken this is the same sellers whom sold off a collection of wings which we discussed here one being a minty Balfour FS wing bought by our friend David...

 

Now as for this wing - the points you bring up about the sterling mark and the patina seem to be the things that jump out first. Additionally the flaw in the front of the wing is a bit odd.

 

[pfrost]

Hi Patrick,

 

I too have been watching this wing - although not my era of wing collecting as you know but interesting. If I am not mistaken this is the same sellers whom sold off a collection of wings which we discussed here one being a minty Balfour FS wing bought by our friend David...

 

Now as for this wing - the points you bring up about the sterling mark and the patina seem to be the things that jump out first. Additionally the flaw in the front of the wing is a bit odd.

 

 

Hi John,

 

Didn't notice that flaw...good eyes! 2 other points. 1) The bit of metal here that isnt cut out. It looks like a place where the feathers weren't made, but the die wasnt cut around it to shape. 2) Flaws around the US and balloon.

[pconrad02]

Hello All,

 

I noticed this one too, and I didn't like it although I missed the flaws on the front, good eye there! This is the same seller who sold a REALLY bad Navy airship half wing , engraved, that was originally sold by one of two sellers who moved a bunch of fake engraved wings a year or two ago. I wouldn't buy a fire extinguisher from him if I was on fire.

 

Paul

[John Cooper]

Well - it went for $406.00 to a Ebay noob... maybe it will get posted here and they buyer will see this thread... but he only has 7days to return it.

 

John

[pfrost]

I suspect in 3-5 years, you will start to see these wings show up with fake hallmarks as well.

 

The biggest problem is that so few people actually ever get the chance to see and study the real things.

 

Patrick

[John Cooper]

Humm here is another on Ebay currently... and from a seller with 0 (ZERO) feedback.

 

Ebay item number 110237174147

 

John

 

PS - please read his statement and view his other items for sale and look at the details.

[cwnorma]

Humm here is another on Ebay currently... and from a seller with 0 (ZERO) feedback.

 

Ebay item number 110237174147

 

John

 

PS - please read his statement and view his other items for sale and look at the details.

 

John,

 

It appears that all these things are coming from Hayes Otoupalik's collection. From what I can gather, he has decided to sell it off.

 

Chris

[Gary Cain]

He started selling off some of his stuff about two years ago. He may be at the Reno Show tomorrow and if he is I will let folks know whats going on with him. As is true of most collections there is some very good and some really bad.

 

 

Gary

John,

 

It appears that all these things are coming from Hayes Otoupalik's collection. From what I can gather, he has decided to sell it off.

 

Chris

[robert60446]

Hi guys,

In my opinion the best way to quickly identify fakes is to compare hardware. Compare every detail of hinge catch and pin to known originals and usually you have your answer. The reason is simple, fakers can produce really good cast copies, but they always struggle to produce good hardware for their fake badges…

[Hayes Otoupalik]

John,

 

It appears that all these things are coming from Hayes Otoupalik's collection. From what I can gather, he has decided to sell it off.

 

Chris

This is Hayes Otoupalik. It is amazing how people just jump to conclusions without asking me. The collection that was being sold on ebay came from an old collector in New Hampshire

who had assembled his collection from buying from Manion's Auction. He consigned his collection to be sold back through Manion, a dealer in southern California and Timothy

Gordon Appraisals of Missoula Montana. These wings did not come from me, and I still have my entire lifetime wing collection in my possession yet. Thanks. Hayes Otoupalik

[Hayes Otoupalik]

He started selling off some of his stuff about two years ago. He may be at the Reno Show tomorrow and if he is I will let folks know whats going on with him. As is true of most collections there is some very good and some really bad.

Gary

This is Hayes Otoupalik. People have assumed that I am selling off my collection because I let the National World War One Museum in Kansas City, Kansas obtain one of my

World War One Tanks. While I did transfer the shell torn FT-17 Renault tank to their collection, I still have my operational WW1 tank in my collection. Despite speculation and

rumors, quite to the contrary I am very anxious to continue expanding the collection and I am always interested in purchasing one item or entire collection.

[uplandmod]

Great to see you here Hayes! I hope you are doing well!

 

Leonardo

[bunkerhillburning]

Well - it went for $406.00 to a Ebay noob... maybe it will get posted here and they buyer will see this thread... but he only has 7days to return it.

 

John

 

Actually, if it turns out to be a fake the sellers 7 day return policy means nothing. Ebay and paypal will back the buyer to the hilt and force the seller to return the money. They'll take it right out of the sellers paypal account.

[pfrost]

Actually, if it turns out to be a fake the sellers 7 day return policy means nothing. Ebay and paypal will back the buyer to the hilt and force the seller to return the money. They'll take it right out of the sellers paypal account.

 

This is an old OLD thread! IIRC this was one of the "million dollar collection" wings that got sold a number of years ago. Many hot and furious discussions on this forum about the mixture of wonderful and cruddy items that came out of that fellow's collection. Back in the day, a whole lot of rumors were circulating about that collection, who the collector was, who was selling it off, and what the story was about the mix of good and bad. Some of the sellers of the collection were unfairly being accused of being frauds and cheaters for putting up the stuff on ebay. I had heard rumors that not a few dealers were seeing their reputation being trashed for selling fakes to the original collector as well.

 

The reason I brought this wing to the forum back then was that it was one of the balloon wings that we had been having some discussions on at the time.