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Glider pilot wings


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Thoughts on this Glider pilot? I'm not an expert and was told it was post war occupation made, is that right?

 

Thanks, Alan

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Looks fine to me; don't know about the post WWII attribution, though. Whatever maker made them produced a range of wings for most ratings, all or most of them with the characteristic (rhodium?) white coating. My father, a 1943-45 navigator had one of them in his accumulation. Probably plated brass, they weren't an expensive wing, nor I think, were they a "graduation" wing that was presented by the Army to newly minted airmen. In my opinion it's a nice, legitimate WWII piece and fairly common as Glider wings go.

 

PS

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militarymodels

Alan,

IMO, it's a post WW2 Glider Pilot wings based on a combination of the look of the finish, the construction, and the material. Still a nice wings, perhaps, they're occupation made.

Regards,

Lonny

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Based on the issue of "strategic materials", I would find it unlikely a wartime U.S.-made wing would be other than sterling, and certainly not brass. It's overall appearance just doesn't have that WW2 "look."

Kurt

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Hi Alan,

 

Could we see a close-up of one of the posts from the side? I understand that for clutchback wings the type of post (and the way it is soldered on) can help determine whether it is wartime or post-war.

 

Regards

Mike

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I suspect that these are simply American-made "issue" or graduation wings (i.e. made per a Government contract) that were born sometime around the end of WWII till about 1947 (when the rating became obsolete)--maybe up to the KW at the very latest (but I doubt even that). More than likely they are some sort of silver alloy with a content of silver that is less than what would allow them to be stamped "sterling".

 

Just my 2 cents.

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I've picked up a "crew" of this type of wing, lacking only a gunner at present. All are clutch back, one has the nail head showing like the Glider at the top of this thread, the others don't, all are soldered on, short posts, and generally have that smooth black coating on the reverse.

 

Those wings with a circular center have a significantly different profile along the lower edge from the pilots which are straighter along that same edge. I haven't found them to be too common, but they are generally to be had at a low price since they are not marked sterling. The ones I have are in essentially unused condition, including my father's example posted below.

 

I wasn't collecting wings when we spoke about them briefly many years ago. He simply noted that he had scratched in his graduation date from Hondo, 9-16-43 which can be seen in the picture. Whether they were his actual graduation wings or something he picked up after the war, I couldn't say with certainty.

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I know a great deal of US wings and badges were sterling during the war but where do these semi-hollow badges fit?

 

I got this medic badge a few years ago on this card.

 

Thanks, Alan

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post-2741-1299422756.jpg

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I know a great deal of US wings and badges were sterling during the war but where do these semi-hollow badges fit?

 

I got this medic badge a few years ago on this card.

 

Thanks, Alan

 

Alan,

 

Nice badge :thumbsup: . Your semi hollow CMB is WW2 period. Some of these semi hollow badges are also makred Sterling as well as the solid back CMB.

Lonny

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I've picked up a "crew" of this type of wing, lacking only a gunner at present. All are clutch back, one has the nail head showing like the Glider at the top of this thread, the others don't, all are soldered on, short posts, and generally have that smooth black coating on the reverse. Those wings with a circular center have a significantly different profile along the lower edge from the pilots which are straighter along that same edge. I haven't found them to be too common, but they are generally to be had at a low price since they are not marked sterling. The ones I have are in essentially unused condition, including my father's example posted below.

 

I wasn't collecting wings when we spoke about them briefly many years ago. He simply noted that he had scratched in his graduation date from Hondo, 9-16-43 which can be seen in the picture. Whether they were his actual graduation wings or something he picked up after the war, I couldn't say with certainty.

Irregardless of the rating, it should not be assumed that a badge was probably made post-war if it has that smooth coating of blue-black lacquer on its back or not marked STERLING. Adding to that, a clear coating of lacquer on the front of a badge made it less likely to tarnish thus unnecessary to keep it polished. Yes, it was a practice used by some manufacturers and it is still used today.

 

Also keep in mind that at the beginning of 1945 wartime production levels for various products were at peak levels of efficiency, as was the higher quality of many items needed by a nation that had been operating on a wartime footing for three years. Oh, and history will confirm that even before hostilities had ended by mid-year 1945 the production of some items had already began to taper off due to government contracts being scaled back. The point is, once the war ended, production of military goods came to a virtual standstill due to the cancellation of most government contracts. That would have been true especially for items such as wing badges for various ratings because there would no longer be a big demand for them. Simply put, at wars end sales at Post Exchanges and other retailers came to a halt and they found themselves flush with inventories that would take years to get of.

 

The Glider Pilot wings owned by Alan is exactly what Paul may have been implying what it really is, a legitimate badge produced during World War II which today should make it a welcomed addition to any collection.

 

It's a really nice find.

 

Cliff

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What is nice about these type of wings for collectors is that they are not typically faked AND they seem to run on the lower end of the price spectrum, all other things considered. On the other hand, I have seen enough of them in groupings and in period photos to feel pretty certain that they were the type of "work a day" insignia that many of the men seem to have been wearing while doing their duties. Sometimes collectors become "wing snobs" and turn their noses up on any wing that isnt sterling, pin back and hallmarked. But, they are what they are, good vintage mid to late 40's wings.

 

Finally, as Cliff says, I suspect a fair number of these went into surplus stores after the war once the demand had dropped off. I once heard a story of a guy finding a large box of these type of wings in all the different ratings at an Army/Navy store that he bought for almost nothing. Not being sterling silver, they had little inherent value. Sadly, he also found that it was pretty difficult to sell them for more than a few dollars over what he paid for them (according to him). They just didn't have the demand, especially for the more common ratings.

 

Patrck

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The Glider Pilot wings owned by Alan is exactly what Paul may have been implying what it really is, a legitimate badge produced during World War II which today should make it a welcomed addition to any collection.

Cliff

:think: I'm not convinced just based on one sloppy hand engrave on a wings and we assumed the other wings were produced in late WW2. Your theory may be right but could be wrong as well unless there's more concrete evidence to support. As a cautious collector, I'm leaning toward the safe side as many of the post war wings do have this look. Unless owtherwise more concrete evidence to suport, guessing is not good enough for a conclusion as such statement.

Just my 1 cent,

Lonny

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:think: I'm not convinced just based on one sloppy hand engrave on a wings and we assumed the other wings were produced in late WW2. Your theory may be right but could be wrong as well unless there's more concrete evidence to support. As a cautious collector, I'm leaning toward the safe side as many of the post war wings do have this look. Unless owtherwise more concrete evidence to suport, guessing is not good enough for a conclusion as such statement.

Just my 1 cent,

Lonny

Hummm, with regard to someone having concrete evidence to support a claim, I believe the similar constructed badge that Paul was referring to with the sloppy hand engraving on its back was owned by his father, a Navagator with the USAAF during WWII.

 

Cliff

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Hummm, with regard to someone having concrete evidence to support a claim, I believe the similar constructed badge that Paul was referring to with the sloppy hand engraving on its back was owned by his father, a Navagator with the USAAF during WWII.

Cliff

 

I want to clarify that when I said "sloppy hand engrave", it wasn't a disrepect to Paul's dad but what I meant was it wasn't a known official engrave of WW2 period. And here are the reasons why I said there's no concrete facts:

First of all, I doubt it if these wings were produced in 43's.

Secondly, your theory was "at the beginning of 1945 wartime production levels for various products were at peak" but the engrave dated 9-16-43, so likely these wings were engraved more than a year later IF your theory was correct, but according to Paul, "Whether they were his actual graduation wings or something he picked up after the war, I couldn't say with certainty."

Because of the above factors, he could have bought the wings in late 40's and engraved it for some reason to replace his semi-hollow wings that Paul posted in the other post because it cannot be engraved, this is just my guess. There's no concrete fact to support if these wings were in fact produced in late war and I'm skeptical at such quick conclusion.

Lonny

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One of the more difficult concepts I’ve had some trouble processing is the dynamic nature of the WWII air war. The rapid buildup was astonishing and in less than 24-months after Eaker’s Amateurs started with 7-men and NO airplanes, the AAF had largely neutered the Luftwaffe as an effective defensive force.

 

Establishing a pipeline to support such a massive buildup was an amazing achievement. Of course, a massive pipeline once filled takes time to shut down. So, even things like wings were most likely produced in excess until it was understood that things had changed. I suspect the wings makers were not included in the inner circles of war material planning and had to fend for themselves to balance inventories.

 

As early as March 1944, right after Big Week, the Eighth was cutting costs by reducing bomber crews from 10-men to 9 by cutting back on bombardiers. In studying some of the Group commands, I’ve noted that many of the 1943/early 1944 commanders were leaving their commands to take spots in the Wing staffs, but probably just as often they were angling for jobs in the Pacific where the next and last focus of WWII would be.

 

The interesting thing about those movements was that most of the AAF higher ranking officers appear to have understood that the ETO was in the bag for the US by early 1944 and the next place to make their marks would be in the Pacific or in Washington.

 

As for a substantial overshoot in the supply of wings, the actual strength of the Air Force probably tells that story as succinctly as anything I could think of: 1940: 51,000 – 1945: 2,283,000—1947: 305,000.

 

I recall that one of Dad’s favorite Saturday stops was to visit a war surplus store located somewhere in Ft. Worth. My recollections date to about 1953 and involve a lot of electro-mechanical stuff with clipped wires hanging off them. Dad was an EE, so that was the kind of stuff he liked. I don’t have any recollections of weapons, badges, or uniform items of any kind. He was a stamp collector.

 

Dad was recalled for an 18-month stint during the Korean War (1951-52) and wore his WWII wings during that time, He never purchased even one set of the new USAF design. That scratched-in date could have been done at any time, even late in life. He was not one to hire a jeweler to do anything...no engraving, no watch repair (his old A11), not even my sterling baby bracelet. Jewelers and engraving were not his thing...he was a child of the Depression all his life.

 

If he had purchased that black back wing post WWII, perhaps when he was recalled, I would be surprised that he showed so little interest in the new USAF wing to have not picked up even one of them. He was angry enough over having been recalled just after he had gotten his BSEE and finally been able to get on with his life that he resigned his commission after his release in 1952 at age 30. He was not about to let them get him again....he was that kind of guy.

 

No, I think that black back wing was one of his original grouping of 4 full-size wings. Whether he got it in 1943 or 1945, I don't know. He was released from the AAF in June 1945, even before VJ day and only a month after VE day. He flew his 50th and final mission in early March 1945, about a week before Germany surrendered. I think that both he and the Air Force felt he had done enough. He was 22.

 

PS

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All in all, does it really matter all that much if a glider wing was born in 1943 or 1947? They were all related to the same thing.... insignia of men fighting WWII. Pretty much the EXACT same cohort of American soldiers (+/- 5 years or so of age), would have been using these wings.

 

Frankly, these wings don't even look to have ever been used or worn, so it isn't that unreasonable to believe that they are some sort of dead stock that never saw the light of day pinned on anyone's uniform. Basically, I suspect that they were made SOMETIME during or just after WWII.

 

IIRC correctly, they stopped even training glider pilots by the end of the war, and the insignia were totally obsolete by 1947. Even if a WII glider pilot WAS called up for Korea , I am not sure they had any glider-borne troops in the new USAF, anyway.

 

To me the only critical question would be if these are fakes? They aren't!

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Patrick, you're right of course.

 

One additional thought to my previous wheeze is that Dad arrived back in the ETO to start his second tour in Oct. 1944. During that period he had an Eisenhower jacket and one of the longer coats made in London. Everything on both of those coats were bullion and cloth; those were the jackets he came home with and pictures of their wings and ribbons are posted elsewhere in this forum.

 

After he left the service he was in school in SFO that Fall and working in far south Texas until his recall to the Air Force in 1951. I'm relatively certain that he wouldn't have been interested in buying any wings in either of those places.

 

I think that a lot of wings worn throughout the 1950s were the same designs and strikes as those made and used during WWII.

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  • 6 years later...

Hello All,

 

Just bought a pair of the glider wings discussed above from eBay. They are exactly the same pattern except for a weak 'sterling' stamp in the shield void at the back. I'm confident they are period wings but the sterling stamp is potentially iffy. Are there any other examples of sterling stamped wings of this type out there? Not fussed either way as these were a bargain regardless, but would like to know just for my reference. I would have thought applying 'sterling' to such workaday clutchback wings wouldn't be worth the effort in terms of making any money out of them. But then there are some desperate people out there!

Posted Image

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Its as good an idea as anything else. These were probably cranked out between 1943/44 to about 1945 or so, with the peak of glider operations mostly happening during 1944-45 (think Normandy invasion, Market/Garden, etc). So, figure the training of glider pilots would have had to preceded this by about 6 months-a year--so peak production of glider pilot wings probably occurred from 1943-1945. By 1947 glider pilot wings were obsolete, but I suspect that the training of new glider pilots had pretty much ended when the war did--so the demand would have completely dried up. The old stock probably sat around in stores and warehouses for years until it all was sold out as surplus.

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That does make sense, thanks. I hadn't realized the US Army got rid of gliders so quickly. The British still had a Glider Pilot Regiment way into the 50s, though I don't think they were deployed in anger after WW2.

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From WIkipedia: The use of gliders had a rather brief span of time.

Major General Henry "Hap" Arnold, Acting Deputy Chief of Staff for Air (becoming Commanding General of the United States Army Air Forces on March 9, 1942), initiated a study with view to develop a glider capable of being towed by aircraft. This directive was set into motion through Classified Technical Instructions (CTI-198 on 24 February 1941, and CTI-203 on 4 March 1941), which authorized the procurement of 2-, 8-, and 15-place gliders and equipment. Eleven companies were invited to participate in the experimental glider program, but only four responded with any interest, Frankfort Sailplane Company (XCG-1, XCG-2), Waco Aircraft Company (XCG-3, XCG-4), St. Louis Aircraft Corp. (XCG-5, XCG-6), and Bowlus Sailplanes (XCG-7, XCG-8). Only Waco Aircraft Company was able to deliver the experimental glider prototypes that satisfied the requirements of Materiel Command, the eight-seat Waco CG-3 (modified to become a production nine-seat glider) and the fifteen-seat Waco CG-4. In October 1941, Lewin B. Barringer was made Glider Specialist, Air Staff, HQ of the Army Air Forces, answering to General Arnold, and placed in charge of the glider program. The shock of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941 prompted the United States to set the number of glider pilots needed at 1,000 to fly 500 eight-seat gliders and 500 fifteen-seat gliders. The number of pilots required was increased to 6,000 by June 1942.[2] After Barringer was lost at sea on a flight to Africa in January 1943, the program came under direction of Richard C. du Pont.[4] Bigger gliders, such as the 30-troop Waco CG-13A and the 42-troop Laister-Kauffman CG-10A were designed later.[5]

The most widely used type was the Waco CG-4A, which was first used in the invasion of Sicily in July 1943 and participated in the D-Day assault on France on 6 June 1944, and in other important airborne operations in Europe, including Operation Market Garden in September 1944 and the crossing the Rhine in March 1945, and in the China-Burma-India Theater. The CG-4A was constructed of a metal and wood frame covered with fabric, manned by a crew of two and with an allowable normal cargo load of 3,710 lb,[2] allowing it to carry 13 combat-equipped troops or a jeep or small artillery piece. The CG-10 could hold 10,850 lb of cargo, such as two howitzers, at a time.[2] The final glider mission of the war was at Luzon on 23 June 1945. By the end of the war, the United States had built 14,612 gliders of all types and had trained over 6,000 glider pilots. The designs of the Waco Aircraft Company were also produced by a wide variety of manufacturers including Ford Motor Company and Cessna Aircraft Company as well as furniture, piano and coffin manufacturers.[2][6]

Following World War II, the United States maintained only one regiment of gliders. Gliders were used in military exercises in 1949, but glider operations were deleted from the United States Army′s capabilities on 1 January 1953.[2] However, the United States Air Force continues to use sailplanes at the United States Air Force Academy to train cadets in the fundamentals of flight.[7]

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